In Reputation but Not in Truth

[Christsfreeservant]

I’m sharing this here with you from my time of personal devotions with my Lord Jesus Christ, for your encouragement. Sue Love

Revelation 3:1-3 ESV

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.” ​

In Reputation Only

This “dead” or “alive” is speaking of spiritual death and spiritual life, not physical death and life. And this church in Sardis is not one single congregation like we would think of in America today. It was the church, the body of Christ, the collective body of all the saints in Christ Jesus in the city of Sardis no matter how many different places they met, for they didn’t have big buildings called “church” like we have in America. They met in small groups in people’s homes or in public places which were meeting places.

They, collectively, had a reputation of being spiritually alive, i.e. of being spiritually on fire for the Lord, walking in his ways, doing what he commanded, going where he would send them, and saying what he gave them to say. They had a reputation of walking in fellowship with the Lord in holiness and in righteousness, in purity of devotion to him, and of daily dying to sin and to self and following Jesus wherever he led them. But it was in reputation only, and not in truth.

Now, as we will read on further, this did not include everyone professing faith in Jesus Christ in Sardis, but it appears that it certainly represented the majority, which I believe fits with where the church in America, overall, is presently. But I don’t believe the reputation of the church in America is necessarily that they are truly walking in purity of devotion to Jesus Christ but more that they are in relationship with Jesus Christ through confessions of faith in him. And the “alive” part is mostly emotional, not spiritual.

The American “Church”

When I hear people speaking of groups of people meeting together in buildings they call “church” (not the true church) – which includes a mixture of the people of the world, “in name only” Christians, and true believers in Jesus Christ – it is not usually talk of how godly and committed to Christ they are. It is mostly about their cool sounding bands, their fun and witty preachers with their interesting talks, the programs they have for all ages, and how friendly and accepting and non-judgmental that they are.

So, in America today, the reputation of the church, overall, has more to do with the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. It is a reputation of being alive, but more in the sense of being fun, entertaining, exciting, lively, friendly, non-threatening, etc., where no one gets in anyone else’s face about anything but where people are generally accepting of one another no matter where they are spiritually, even if they are living in sin.

But it is still a reputation of being spiritual and of being Christian and of being in relationship with the Lord Jesus. But just like the church in Sardis, they are “mostly dead,” i.e. not dead all the way, for there are still some things which remain which are on the positive side but which are about to die if they do not wake up and repent of their wicked deeds and turn and now walk in obedience to the Lord.

For, the church here in America is mostly teaching a diluted (altered) gospel message, which resembles the true gospel, but which is a lie. And so many people are professing faith in Jesus Christ (they have a reputation of being alive spiritually) but they have not died with Christ to sin and they are not living to him and to his righteousness, in practice. Many who profess faith in Jesus are still living in deliberate and habitual sin (they are spiritually dead).

A.W. Tozer: “It is my opinion that tens of thousands of people, if not millions, have been brought into some kind of religious experience by ‘accepting’ Christ, and they have not been saved. If your Christian conversion did not reverse the direction of your life, if it did not transform it then you are not converted at all. You are simply a victim of the ‘accept Jesus’ heresy!” ​

So, if this is where you are, professing faith in Jesus Christ but still deliberately and habitually sinning against the Lord and not walking in holiness and in righteousness in obedience to his commands, then this message is for you. If you do not turn away from your sins to follow Jesus in obedience, you will not have eternal life with God no matter what you profess with your lips or think you believe in your heart, and no matter what anyone else has told you. Heaven is not your eternal destiny.

[Lu 9:23-26; Jn 6:35-58; Jn 15:1-11; Rom 6:1-23; Rom 8:1-17; Eph 4:17-24; 1 Pet 2:24; 1 Co 6:9-10,19-20; 2 Co 5:10,15,21; Tit 2:11-14; Jas 1:21-25; Rom 12:1-2; Php 2:12-13; Col 1:21-23; Col 3:5-10; Gal 5:16-21; Eph 5:3-11; Gal 6:7-8; Rom 2:6-8; Heb 10:26-27; 1 Jn 1:5-9; 1 Jn 2:3-6; 1 Jn 3:4-10; Matt 7:21-23; Ac 26:18; Rev 21:8,27; Rev 22:14-15; Eph 2:8-10]

Revelation 3:4-6 ESV

“Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”​

Yet, there are still Christians in America who are walking in obedience to the Lord, who have forsaken their sinful practices, and who are living holy and godly lives pleasing to the Lord and for the glory of God. We may be few in number, but we still exist. It doesn’t mean we have always lived perfect lives but we presently are walking in submission to Christ as Lord and we are not giving our minds, our hearts, or our bodies over to the sinful passions of the flesh – yet only by the grace of God, so all the glory goes to God!!

When our Lord Jesus returns for his bride, we will be welcomed into his eternal kingdom. And then our salvation will be complete and we will forever be with our Lord. For, by the grace of God, and in his strength and wisdom, we have conquered the flesh with its sinful passions and we are walking in purity of devotion to our Lord. Again, this is not a claim of absolute perfection, but it is a testimony to God’s saving grace that we are able, in Him, to walk in holiness and in righteousness to the glory of God.

I Can Only Imagine

Song by Bart Millard

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk by Your side
I can only imagine
What my eyes would see
When Your face is before me

Surrounded by Your glory
What will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you Jesus
Or in awe of You be still?
Will I stand in your presence
Or to my knees, will I fall?
Will I sing hallelujah?
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine, yeah

Caution: This link may contain ads

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I’m sharing this here with you from my time of personal devotions with my Lord Jesus Christ, for your encouragement. Sue Love

Revelation 3:1-3 ESV

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.” ​

In Reputation Only

This “dead” or “alive” is speaking of spiritual death and spiritual life, not physical death and life. And this church in Sardis is not one single congregation like we would think of in America today. It was the church, the body of Christ, the collective body of all the saints in Christ Jesus in the city of Sardis no matter how many different places they met, for they didn’t have big buildings called “church” like we have in America. They met in small groups in people’s homes or in public places which were meeting places.

They, collectively, had a reputation of being spiritually alive, i.e. of being spiritually on fire for the Lord, walking in his ways, doing what he commanded, going where he would send them, and saying what he gave them to say. They had a reputation of walking in fellowship with the Lord in holiness and in righteousness, in purity of devotion to him, and of daily dying to sin and to self and following Jesus wherever he led them. But it was in reputation only, and not in truth.

Now, as we will read on further, this did not include everyone professing faith in Jesus Christ in Sardis, but it appears that it certainly represented the majority, which I believe fits with where the church in America, overall, is presently. But I don’t believe the reputation of the church in America is necessarily that they are truly walking in purity of devotion to Jesus Christ but more that they are in relationship with Jesus Christ through confessions of faith in him. And the “alive” part is mostly emotional, not spiritual.

The American “Church”

When I hear people speaking of groups of people meeting together in buildings they call “church” (not the true church) – which includes a mixture of the people of the world, “in name only” Christians, and true believers in Jesus Christ – it is not usually talk of how godly and committed to Christ they are. It is mostly about their cool sounding bands, their fun and witty preachers with their interesting talks, the programs they have for all ages, and how friendly and accepting and non-judgmental that they are.

So, in America today, the reputation of the church, overall, has more to do with the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. It is a reputation of being alive, but more in the sense of being fun, entertaining, exciting, lively, friendly, non-threatening, etc., where no one gets in anyone else’s face about anything but where people are generally accepting of one another no matter where they are spiritually, even if they are living in sin.

But it is still a reputation of being spiritual and of being Christian and of being in relationship with the Lord Jesus. But just like the church in Sardis, they are “mostly dead,” i.e. not dead all the way, for there are still some things which remain which are on the positive side but which are about to die if they do not wake up and repent of their wicked deeds and turn and now walk in obedience to the Lord.

For, the church here in America is mostly teaching a diluted (altered) gospel message, which resembles the true gospel, but which is a lie. And so many people are professing faith in Jesus Christ (they have a reputation of being alive spiritually) but they have not died with Christ to sin and they are not living to him and to his righteousness, in practice. Many who profess faith in Jesus are still living in deliberate and habitual sin (they are spiritually dead).

A.W. Tozer: “It is my opinion that tens of thousands of people, if not millions, have been brought into some kind of religious experience by ‘accepting’ Christ, and they have not been saved. If your Christian conversion did not reverse the direction of your life, if it did not transform it then you are not converted at all. You are simply a victim of the ‘accept Jesus’ heresy!” ​

So, if this is where you are, professing faith in Jesus Christ but still deliberately and habitually sinning against the Lord and not walking in holiness and in righteousness in obedience to his commands, then this message is for you. If you do not turn away from your sins to follow Jesus in obedience, you will not have eternal life with God no matter what you profess with your lips or think you believe in your heart, and no matter what anyone else has told you. Heaven is not your eternal destiny.

[Lu 9:23-26; Jn 6:35-58; Jn 15:1-11; Rom 6:1-23; Rom 8:1-17; Eph 4:17-24; 1 Pet 2:24; 1 Co 6:9-10,19-20; 2 Co 5:10,15,21; Tit 2:11-14; Jas 1:21-25; Rom 12:1-2; Php 2:12-13; Col 1:21-23; Col 3:5-10; Gal 5:16-21; Eph 5:3-11; Gal 6:7-8; Rom 2:6-8; Heb 10:26-27; 1 Jn 1:5-9; 1 Jn 2:3-6; 1 Jn 3:4-10; Matt 7:21-23; Ac 26:18; Rev 21:8,27; Rev 22:14-15; Eph 2:8-10]

Revelation 3:4-6 ESV

“Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”​

Yet, there are still Christians in America who are walking in obedience to the Lord, who have forsaken their sinful practices, and who are living holy and godly lives pleasing to the Lord and for the glory of God. We may be few in number, but we still exist. It doesn’t mean we have always lived perfect lives but we presently are walking in submission to Christ as Lord and we are not giving our minds, our hearts, or our bodies over to the sinful passions of the flesh – yet only by the grace of God, so all the glory goes to God!!

When our Lord Jesus returns for his bride, we will be welcomed into his eternal kingdom. And then our salvation will be complete and we will forever be with our Lord. For, by the grace of God, and in his strength and wisdom, we have conquered the flesh with its sinful passions and we are walking in purity of devotion to our Lord. Again, this is not a claim of absolute perfection, but it is a testimony to God’s saving grace that we are able, in Him, to walk in holiness and in righteousness to the glory of God.

I Can Only Imagine

Song by Bart Millard

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk by Your side
I can only imagine
What my eyes would see
When Your face is before me

Surrounded by Your glory
What will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you Jesus
Or in awe of You be still?
Will I stand in your presence
Or to my knees, will I fall?
Will I sing hallelujah?
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine, yeah

Caution: This link may contain ads

You have shown the problem as you see it. So, what are you doing in practical terms to make a difference in your area of influence?

 

[Christsfreeservant]

You have shown the problem as you see it. So, what are you doing in practical terms to make a difference in your area of influence?

I am doing what God has called me to do to share on here each day what the Lord is teaching me from his word. I am teaching the truth of the gospel and exposing the lies and warning against the consequences of following after the lies and sharing the rewards of following Jesus Christ with our lives. For this is all about people needing to forsake their sinful lifestyles to follow Jesus Christ in surrender to his will for our lives.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am doing what God has called me to do to share on here each day what the Lord is teaching me from his word. I am teaching the truth of the gospel and exposing the lies and warning against the consequences of following after the lies and sharing the rewards of following Jesus Christ with our lives. For this is all about people needing to forsake their sinful lifestyles to follow Jesus Christ in surrender to his will for our lives.

I already know that, and you do it very effectively. So, you must be part of a fellowship group or church somewhere, and I am interested in what you involve yourself in as part of the life of that church or fellowship group.

 

[GDL]

You have shown the problem as you see it. So, what are you doing in practical terms to make a difference in your area of influence?

I already know that, and you do it very effectively. So, you must be part of a fellowship group or church somewhere, and I am interested in what you involve yourself in as part of the life of that church or fellowship group.

FWIW, I also live in the US, have lived in 3 states in the past couple decades, have taught Scripture in 2 and have visited or attended "churches" in the same 2, and my experience here is the same as Sue's. The problems she speaks of seem very widespread.

From what I read of her writings and see in the numbers on her posts on a global forum, it seems her "area of influence" may well be far beyond her local area. I'm not quite certain how you come to your "So, you must be..." conclusion, so I'm asking if you'd please elaborate. What if, and I'm just being hypothetical, there is no local group that shares her views of what Scripture teaches and what a local "church' or "fellowship group" is to be? What if there are other practical circumstances or Scripturally described issues that prevent the involvement you speak of?

 

[Christsfreeservant]

I already know that, and you do it very effectively. So, you must be part of a fellowship group or church somewhere, and I am interested in what you involve yourself in as part of the life of that church or fellowship group.

Watchman, I do not have time now to respond to your question. I feel that GDL gave a pretty good response. But to answer your question is going to take a little time, so remind me if you do not hear back from me in a few days. For my intention is to answer your question, just can't do today. Too many other things going on.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

FWIW, I also live in the US, have lived in 3 states in the past couple decades, have taught Scripture in 2 and have visited or attended "churches" in the same 2, and my experience here is the same as Sue's. The problems she speaks of seem very widespread.

From what I read of her writings and see in the numbers on her posts on a global forum, it seems her "area of influence" may well be far beyond her local area. I'm not quite certain how you come to your "So, you must be..." conclusion, so I'm asking if you'd please elaborate. What if, and I'm just being hypothetical, there is no local group that shares her views of what Scripture teaches and what a local "church' or "fellowship group" is to be? What if there are other practical circumstances or Scripturally described issues that prevent the involvement you speak of?

When I moved cities two years ago, I found a small Union Methodist/Presbyterian church in my neigborhood. If they have 20 people to a Sunday morning service we think we are having a revival.

After a couple of weeks, I got the job of property convenor and at the end of the financial year, I took over the treasurer role. Then I was put on the preachers roster and conduct the service and preach once a month. There is a mix of evangelical and quite liberal Christians. I don't try and change the liberals. In fact I de-objectivise my own ideals, and share the Gospel as I know it in the hope that when I fall off the perch, I can take some of those people to heaven with me.

It is one thing to pontificate my own views and opinions on these forums, but it is quite another to join a fellowship that needs my experience and skills and to put my hand to the plough in support of the people. When we just had a fellowship meal, I went over, scraped the plates into the scrap bin and dried the many dishes. Doing that and presenting the church accounts each month were just as important as preaching at the Sunday service.

You see, when I am doing practical things to support my local fellowship, the others see the real me, instead of forum members seeing just a set of typewritten opinions in a forum.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Watchman, I do not have time now to respond to your question. I feel that GDL gave a pretty good response. But to answer your question is going to take a little time, so remind me if you do not hear back from me in a few days. For my intention is to answer your question, just can't do today. Too many other things going on.

My answer to GDL's post explains what I'm getting at.

 

[Christsfreeservant]

When I moved cities two years ago, I found a small Union Methodist/Presbyterian church in my neigborhood. If they have 20 people to a Sunday morning service we think we are having a revival.

After a couple of weeks, I got the job of property convenor and at the end of the financial year, I took over the treasurer role. Then I was put on the preachers roster and conduct the service and preach once a month. There is a mix of evangelical and quite liberal Christians. I don't try and change the liberals. In fact I de-objectivise my own ideals, and share the Gospel as I know it in the hope that when I fall off the perch, I can take some of those people to heaven with me.

It is one thing to pontificate my own views and opinions on these forums, but it is quite another to join a fellowship that needs my experience and skills and to put my hand to the plough in support of the people. When we just had a fellowship meal, I went over, scraped the plates into the scrap bin and dried the many dishes. Doing that and presenting the church accounts each month were just as important as preaching at the Sunday service.

You see, when I am doing practical things to support my local fellowship, the others see the real me, instead of forum members seeing just a set of typewritten opinions in a forum.

Watchman 1, this is the real me. Yes, I know anyone can write whatever they want to write and it does not necessarily represent who they really are. There are many fakes out there. The thing of it is, with regard to your question, no local fellowship I have found so far, and we have been to plenty, wants the real me. I don't fit and they let me know I don't fit. I have been invited out of several fellowships (institutional churches, not the body of Christ) because they don't like who I am, because I don't fit in with their marketing plans for how to build their "churches" (not the true church).

But I was a working part of institutional church fellowships for sixty three years before the Lord finally convinced me that I was to leave "Babylon" (the market-driven institutional churches of today) and now I get my Christian fellowship mostly with people on the internet. This is my church, and this is my mission field. And this is my full-time assignment from the Lord Jesus plus caring for (spending time with) my husband, children (4 plus 3 spouses), and grandchildren (I have 14 grandchildren, though I don't see all of them regularly).

I will share this video with you of me sharing my testimony (part of it, anyway), and what you see in the video is what people see of me in real life. But they see the funny side of me, too, for I do have a sense of humor. I have to in my family.

 

[Christsfreeservant]

My answer to GDL's post explains what I'm getting at.

One more thought to share. My husband and I have moved around a bit. We have lived in 5 US states and 10 US cities, and over my lifetime I have lived in 30 different residences, 19 of those with my husband of 50 years (in a couple of weeks). And we have participated in multiple institutional churches over these years we have lived, and been married, and from multiple church denominations (4 main ones).

I am on Facebook. Are you familiar with Facebook? I have about 170 "friends" on there, i.e. mostly all people I have known over the course of my life, some family members, but most of them from institutional churches we have participated in over the course of our lives. So these are mostly all people who have known me in person. And I share with them the same things I share here only more than that because these are people I know and who somewhat know me.

So, I am in relationship with these people, most of whom profess faith in Jesus Christ, and I do also have fellowship with some of them who are likeminded, and we minister to one another. And a few of them we do get together with in person occasionally. Yes, it is mostly not face to face in person, but these are people I have known in person.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Watchman 1, this is the real me. Yes, I know anyone can write whatever they want to write and it does not necessarily represent who they really are. There are many fakes out there. The thing of it is, with regard to your question, no local fellowship I have found so far, and we have been to plenty, wants the real me. I don't fit and they let me know I don't fit. I have been invited out of several fellowships (institutional churches, not the body of Christ) because they don't like who I am, because I don't fit in with their marketing plans for how to build their "churches" (not the true church).

But I was a working part of institutional church fellowships for sixty three years before the Lord finally convinced me that I was to leave "Babylon" (the market-driven institutional churches of today) and now I get my Christian fellowship mostly with people on the internet. This is my church, and this is my mission field. And this is my full-time assignment from the Lord Jesus plus caring for (spending time with) my husband, children (4 plus 3 spouses), and grandchildren (I have 14 grandchildren, though I don't see all of them regularly).

I will share this video with you of me sharing my testimony (part of it, anyway), and what you see in the video is what people see of me in real life. But they see the funny side of me, too, for I do have a sense of humor. I have to in my family.

I am continuing my discussion, not to put you down, but to encourage you, because I firmly believe there is a place for you somewhere in the body of Christ.

I wonder if you are limiting yourself in your choice of fellowships. When I first came to Christchurch my daughter invited me to the local Elim Pentecostal church. It was a really on fire church with around 200 people. I could have had a lot of fun there, but I felt that at my age (74), I would have withered away as a pew-sitter. I felt that I had a bit of mileage still on the clock in terms of service.

The Union church I did join had just 10 people in the Sunday service, mainly elderly ladies. It was totally different to anything I had encountered before. I increased the male membership by100%! But after two or three weeks, I found my place there.

If you are looking at churches that just fit where you think you should be, you may be bypassing the right church for you, and you being the right person for them. Of course there are cults, and I am not advising you to join one of them.

Over the years, I have joined Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anglican, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches, and my present church is Methodist/Presbyterian. My M.Div was through an on line Bible College where the staff were members of the Church of Christ, I have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor. I have another close friend who attends an Open Brethren chapel. If God led me to any of these churches in the future, I would happily be part of the life of those churches. This is because the denominational labels mean nothing to me, and it doesn't matter whether the service is liturgical or free in structure, because true worship to God is through the heart, and the theology of a church doesn't have to affect my personal theology.

So there might be a fellowship right under your nose that you don't see because you are looking at a limited range of churches you think may be more suitable to you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One more thought to share. My husband and I have moved around a bit. We have lived in 5 US states and 10 US cities, and over my lifetime I have lived in 30 different residences, 19 of those with my husband of 50 years (in a couple of weeks). And we have participated in multiple institutional churches over these years we have lived, and been married, and from multiple church denominations (4 main ones).

I am on Facebook. Are you familiar with Facebook? I have about 170 "friends" on there, i.e. mostly all people I have known over the course of my life, some family members, but most of them from institutional churches we have participated in over the course of our lives. So these are mostly all people who have known me in person. And I share with them the same things I share here only more than that because these are people I know and who somewhat know me.

So, I am in relationship with these people, most of whom profess faith in Jesus Christ, and I do also have fellowship with some of them who are likeminded, and we minister to one another. And a few of them we do get together with in person occasionally. Yes, it is mostly not face to face in person, but these are people I have known in person.

I appreciate your post. I am not sure where I can go with you from here. Let me think about it for a while and see what pearls of wisdom come to me.

 

[GDL]

Interesting how He can work in and through every one of us knowing who each of us is, with all of our individual quirks, characters, personalities, strengths, weaknesses, etc., and knowing where He has designated & gifted each of us to fit into His body for His purpose. I gave up some time ago trying to be what another part of His body told me from their perspective that I needed to be. He's the head from which comes all direction and we each must do our best to listen and to sort out what is and is not from Him and to function accordingly...

 

[Christsfreeservant]

I am continuing my discussion, not to put you down, but to encourage you, because I firmly believe there is a place for you somewhere in the body of Christ.

I wonder if you are limiting yourself in your choice of fellowships. When I first came to Christchurch my daughter invited me to the local Elim Pentecostal church. It was a really on fire church with around 200 people. I could have had a lot of fun there, but I felt that at my age (74), I would have withered away as a pew-sitter. I felt that I had a bit of mileage still on the clock in terms of service.

The Union church I did join had just 10 people in the Sunday service, mainly elderly ladies. It was totally different to anything I had encountered before. I increased the male membership by100%! But after two or three weeks, I found my place there.

If you are looking at churches that just fit where you think you should be, you may be bypassing the right church for you, and you being the right person for them. Of course there are cults, and I am not advising you to join one of them.

Over the years, I have joined Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anglican, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches, and my present church is Methodist/Presbyterian. My M.Div was through an on line Bible College where the staff were members of the Church of Christ, I have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor. I have another close friend who attends an Open Brethren chapel. If God led me to any of these churches in the future, I would happily be part of the life of those churches. This is because the denominational labels mean nothing to me, and it doesn't matter whether the service is liturgical or free in structure, because true worship to God is through the heart, and the theology of a church doesn't have to affect my personal theology.

So there might be a fellowship right under your nose that you don't see because you are looking at a limited range of churches you think may be more suitable to you.

I am not looking. The Lord has me where he has me and I am content with that. Thank you for your concern, though.