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exxxys

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So you're implying I don't have a moral compass? Well I'm to see you know me so well. I never knew you could tell someone's thoughts from over the internet! Wow!

If we're going to get into human rights, and all humans are equal, then a fetus has no right to use my body without my permission.

Abortions are rarely fatal when done in a safe sterile environment. There are FAR more fatalites when people try to do abortions themselves.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Actually, the mother does not give blood to the fetus in the full sense of that phrase; it is not a blood transfusion. The two circulatory systems operate independently and there is no known point, as far as I am aware, where the blood of the fetus and the blood of the mother comes into contact, except perhaps when the placenta is removed from the uterine wall. What is given to the fetus? Nutrients for its nourishment and continual development, but not via a circulatory exchange. That point, however, is not what I wish to emphasize. If nutrients are the property of the mother, then can the mother declare to the natural flora in her body that she has decided that she no-longer wishes for them to have her nutrients for their growth? Remember, these organisms are separate to the mother, yet survive on the person's nutrients. Can a person declare, to this naturally-occurring phenomena, that it must cease? Of course not, it, like pregnancy, is a naturally occurring phenomena. We do not possess total control over all aspects of our existence, yet alone our own bodies and their functions.

You offer the unlikely scenario that a fetus is attached to its mother, outside the body, via an umbilical cord, and ask whether the mother can decide to cut the cord, effectively cutting the supply of nutrients to the developing fetus. Yes she can. But that does that mean it is right? That is the real question of the matter. Of course, we all have choice. But that does not mean that all choices are in accordance with moral truth.


I hear you speak of adults here, making choices for children that are not yet born. Even for born children, adults make the choices regarding where they go to school, how they dress. Etc. However, if they made the choice to throw a child out, an infant for example, outside their home, because they did not wish to share their property with the infant, are they justified for making such a choice? Of course not. They are charged with neglect. Can adults make the decision to kill their born children, and be morally justified, on the grounds that do not wish to share their property with a child? Of course not. Such a suggestion is ludricous. Point is, adults can make decisions for their children, but those decisions are not always in the best interests of the child, or in the case of abortion, they are in the worst interests of the child. You can also see how the argument of the choice of not sharing one's property with another, a child for example, can be expanded to include sharing one's property with children that are born.


And we also reach the crux of the issue. You offer the condition that one may exercise their freedom "as long as he doesn't harm anyone else in the process." In abortion, there are two persons involved, and one of them will be harmed by the choice of the other. Unlike the transfusion scenario, where a person's choice not to give does not result in the violent violation of the other person's bodily integrity, abortion does, by its very nature - it is invasive.

Again, the only reason why we can't control those things, is technological. There is no reason in principle why we can't control them.

"For a reason"? What reason would that be? Because God doesn't want us to?

In principle, we cannot control certain things because they are naturally-occurring. Why? Most likely an evolutionary feature so as to ensure the survival and continuation of the species. If we could control these things, that are naturally occurring, (being human) we would likely stuff them up. So perhaps it is accurate to theorize that we cannot control nature "for a reason."
 
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Eleveness

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This is a non-sequitur. Our inability to remove organisms from our body has absolutely no relevance with the legality or morality of abortion. Abortion is clearly possible; what difference does it make if there are other organisms present in a woman's body that cannot be removed? (I'm not being deliberately obtuse; I'm trying to see the relevance, but failing to do so.)

You (along with several other posters in this thread) are confusing what is morally right with what is legally right. Whether abortion is morally right is an enormously complex question that is dependent on each pregnant woman's individual circumstances. But, as I understand it, the abortion debate centers on whether abortion is legally permissible. I hold that it should be legal, as the prohibition of abortion would violate a pregnant woman's right to the control of her own body. No one--not you nor I nor the fetus nor anyone else--can rightfully seize control of a woman's body without her consent.

Presumably, the mother had an opportunity to abort the child while it was still in utero, so if she carried it to term, we can infer that she does indeed want to keep the child. If she then decides to neglect the child (or worse), then she has betrayed our trust that she will care for the child, and we can seek legal retribution. Note that in order for her to betray our trust in her, she has to have had the option of abortion to begin with, i.e. if she is denied the option of abortion, she has a legitimate reason to neglect the child.

Now, many people in this thread have attempted to inject the argument, "Well, if she didn't want the baby, she shouldn't have had sex in the first place!" The flaw in this argument is that it's possible to get pregnant for perfectly legitimate reasons that are unrelated to intending to conceive. I have already discussed this point at length in other posts, and I do not care to do so again; suffice it to say that two people may wish to have sex for reasons other than procreation.

A fetus is arguably harming the body of its mother during pregnancy. Other posters in other threads have listed the health problems that women often face during pregnancy--everything from fatigue to mental problems to diabetes to death during childbirth (this last fortunately being very rare, but it is still a possibility). The fetus most certainly does not have the right to inflict these problems on its mother if she does not want it to, and we most certainly do not have the right to force the mother to suffer from these problems. If the mother wishes to rid herself of these problems, that is her right.

This argument can (and, indeed, has) been made for the purpose of discouraging every scientific advancement in the history of mankind. Every time someone makes a new discovery, there is always someone saying, "If we could control this naturally-ocurring thing, we would likely mess it up." Yes, the discovery of new phenomena and the utilization of new inventions is dangerous business, but the rewards are far greater: Every piece of modern technology we owe to someone's attempt to "control nature". You're staring at a piece of modern technology right now.

In the case of abortion, our attempts to "control nature" have resulted in the liberation of tens of millions of women who would otherwise have been chained to a baby they didn't want. I submit that humanity has benefited from such liberation. Women are our friends. (And no, humanity would not have benefited from the addition of tens of millions of unwanted babies inflicting misery on unwilling parents.)
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The point is quite clear. We are naturally unable to exercise total control over all our natural functions. A good theory to explain this is that it is an evolutionary feature, so as to ensure our survival. If we could, for example, choose to remove the natural flora in our bodies, the likely result would be increased infection and therefore increased death. Perhaps why we cannot naturally abort other human beings is for a similar natural reason. ... Just a contemplation.


Such relativism does not take into consideration firm and foundational moral truth - there are two persons involved in any pregnancy; the woman pregnant and the child. Both are living human beings. Both are developing, one more rapidly than the other. As living human beings, they both retain human rights, regardless of 'individual circumstances.' Too often have human rights been attacked under the guise of 'individual circumstances.' Torture could be justified by the 'circumstances.' Terrorism can be rationalized by the 'circumstances.' And yet, people constantly demand and call for moral integrity so that principles are not circumvented by the 'circumstances.' Circumstances are dynamic and constantly changing in our rapidly alternating environment. Moral truth, however, remains. And while there may be tension... human rights are not subject to the circumstances.


Your first assumption, that the mother wanted to keep the child because she bore it full term, is just that, an assumption. She may have had to have borne the child because 'safe' abortion was not an available option for her. You do, however, suggest that it is 'legitimate' for her to neglect the child if safe abortion is not available. You do not provide any rationalization for such a position. And it is a matter of moral relativism again, that does little justice in considering the rights of the child, which are circumvented in this case, under the guise of circumstances again. What court of true justice would consider deliberate abuse 'legitimate' under the circumstance that the mother was not able to abuse the child prior to its birth?
The point I made earlier was to emphasize that it is considered 'moral' and even legally protected for a child to be neglected, abused and evicted from its first home in the world - the womb, and yet it considered immoral and illegal for a child to be neglected, abused and evicted from their homes after birth. You claim that the womb is the property of the woman, and she has superior right and authority to declare if she does not wish a child to be there that it must be evicted, via abortion. However, after a child is born, it lives in the home of its parents. That physical space is the property of its parents, and if the parents declare they no longer wish to share their property and resources with the child, are they not under the same logic entitled to evict the child from their property? It is, afterall, their property, is it not? And if they regard the child as an intruder, are they are not entitled to abuse it and evict it from their property, since their property rights are superior in authority to the rights of the vulnerable child?


For balance, perhaps you should also consider the protective factors involved in pregnancy, not merely the risk factors.
You claim that "the fetus most certainly does not have the right to inflict these problems on its mother." Pregnancy is a natural phenomenon. And all natural phenomena, including those of biology, involves risk factors. It is not the fetus that decides to inflict any such risk upon the mother, so why should the fetus be punished for something that it did not intend to cause?
And we return also, once more, to the discussion on property rights. If the woman can declare that her uterus is her property and violently evict her child from it, can a parent do the same to a born child, in the name of exercising their property rights? Under the same logic, they would be justified in doing so.


Scientific progress in not progress at all unless it is matched by progress in humanity's conscience and ethical understanding. What is the value in being able to control the very molecules of life and yet devaluing life as expendable at the same time? Our existence would be loose meaning and morality would be reduced to relativism where human rights are subject to circumstance and can be violated under rationalization of scientific progress. That is not progress at all, if advance scientifically and yet decline morally.


This ill-conceived 'liberation' has also enforced tyranny upon an entire generation of human beings, men and women, and has reduced them to the status of mere property. Human life in the womb has become legally disposable, as is property, and has thus been devalued. This 'liberation' has caused countless unborn child to scream silently for life that they will never be able to experience. It has subjected them to an invasive and violent death caused by unfeeling instruments that destructively violate their body's integrity. What kind of 'freedom' allows someone to kill another person in the name of choice? That is not freedom, but tyranny. Who benefits from such apparent 'liberation'? Certainly not the men and women who never had the freedom to live.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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So if the government decided to turn off the water supply because you have no right to use it what would you do? With your logic you should have no problem. WHat if someone told you you couldn't shop for food or throw away your trash because of the consequences it could have on other people? What if you were told you couldn't leave your house because people were tired of breathin in the pollution you emit from your transportation and your danger on the road? Your logic is in error because if you go the route of the baby using resources from the womb while you yourself use resources from the world it makes you look like an enourmous hypocrite(by the way, children still use resources from the parents when their out of the womb, should they be killed too?)


Abortion always ends in fatality, either the woman and the baby, or the baby. It is always one procedure where you come out more unhealthy than you came in



wow, what a wonderful attitude you have on children. "Controlling nature"?, creepy, you should like those nazi scientists for eugenics or something. Liberation? murdering your own unborn child is liberation? sick. Yea those 60 million murdered children woulda done such harm to society! Yes, all that increased economy and consumerism and more people paying taxes and buying real estate, cars, stocks and bonds, houses and land woulda been just HORRIBLE for society! *rolls eyes*

http://www.thecostofabortion.com/watch5.php


please watch this video above. It may opens peoples hearts


BAD MORALITY MAKES BAD POLICY!
 
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exxxys

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You understand that our world is ridiculously overpopulated, right? And the fact we're about to enter a depression doesn't seem so appealing with 60 million extra people to cater to, further pitching the economy into a pit, with more debt, despair.

Before you say there is no depression coming, 2008 has seen the beginning of a regression, which is a good start to depression. If our world keeps doing what its doing, then we can say hello to poverty.

Forcing a woman to carry a child is a complete breach of human rights. You cannot say you live in a free country, then turn around and say "Oh, sorry, the government has complete control of your body." Thats wrong.

Oh, BTW-An abortion done properly will RARELY result in death. Most deaths as a result of abortion are failure to follow instructions on the woman's part.
 
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exxxys

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This argument is ridiculous. Can a tumor live independently from the body and grow and function in society if removed? You can’t compare a tumor to a human being.
That's not the point. The point is that you cannot claim to live in a free country, then say that a woman does not control her body.

People argue "She chose to have sex". Yes she did. She can also choose to abort.
 
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Ryanswife

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That's not the point. The point is that you cannot claim to live in a free country, then say that a woman does not control her body.

People argue "She chose to have sex". Yes she did. She can also choose to abort.

Then all murder should be legal. My neighbor is an inconvienience so I should be free to kill them if that is what I wish to do. Why tell me that I can't kill who I want...I should be able to control what I do. Not the government....

Do you agree with the above statement? Probably not. Then if that is not okay then why do you think that abortion is?
 
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exxxys

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Your neighbor has nothing to do with your body. If your neighbor was coming over everyday and forcing you to give them blood, is that fair? No. So why can another human use your body without your permission?
 
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exxxys

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Is it fair to rob another human of their future especially when they have no say so in the matter?

If someone aborts a baby, it's often because of the kind of future they are going to have. The baby will often be born into poverty, or given to the foster care system.

Did you read my post above about how our society is now entered in a regression?
 
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rcorley

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So let me get this straight...in an earlier post, you complained that we couldn't assume to know you because we can't read your mind over the internet. Yet...you claim to have foreknowledge of the kind of future that a baby will have - what their life will turn out to be. This is the type of relativism that we're talking about. You can't hold to both standards. If you can read futures then I can read your mind.

Also...you may be too young to remember this, but we have gone through recessions and depressions before. It's a cyclical process. It doesn't bear upon the life of a child for long because these cycles tend to run in 10-13 year cycles. Sooo...let the baby live to 14 and he will have a great life. If you lived your life according to the economy, you wouldn't make it to 28 at your rate.

Also...who are you to judge foster care? Admittedly, since we are dealing with human nature, there will be bad situations involving abuse - but the VAST majority of foster parents and adoptions involve caring people that willing give up their lives to care for children. I personally know multiple families that have fostered children and others that have adopted. They are GREAT people. Where are you getting your information? Or are you just talking from the same experience that 15 years of life brings?
 
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rcorley

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A fetus isn't the same as a human citizen. Legally.

What legal precedent do you draw this from? If this is cast in stone, why are people that strike pregnant women and cause miscarriage charged for manslaughter? When a person kills a pregnant woman, that person can be charged for a double murder (case in point - Scott/Lacy Peterson)
 
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exxxys

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I can't read futures. I'm making an educated assumption that if the coming regression if followed by a depression, 60 million extra kids won't help.





I have tons of friends in foster care. Being bounced around from home to home has screwed up their lives big time. They don't know how to trust, they aren't responsible, they don't do well in school. Children thrive on consistancy, and the foster care system does not bring consistancy.

In addition, there are more children waiting to be adopted than there are parents who are looking to adopt. This puts more kids into the foster care system.

Also, please don't mock my age. You don't know what I've been through in my life, how I act, or how I present myself. Don't make assumptions about my character based on a number. This isn't about my age.
 
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rcorley

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Also, please don't mock my age. You don't know what I've been through in my life, how I act, or how I present myself. Don't make assumptions about my character based on a number. This isn't about my age.

I disagree...this has much to do with your age. You don't have the life experience to make these types of decisions regarding life. You haven't seen an ultrasound of your baby's heart beating or sucking his thumb. You haven't experienced the joy of a baby kicking or your husband beaming with joy as he holds his son in his arms for the first time.

I'm not mocking you or your age, but you lack experience in this arena. You shouldn't attempt to step into an area where you carry no authority. This is not about a number, but your age is a factor. I did MANY stupid things that I HIGHLY regret when I was 15 - and 16 - and 17 - etc...you get the point. We all gain experience as we pass through life and your views will change on a variety of subjects. You most likely don't have the same viewpoints today that you did when you were 5. That's just life.

But in this field, you just haven't had the opportunity to experience the joys that children bring. You are just seeing the negative. Ask any mother what they think about their 6 month old and I can assure you that it won't involve the economy. According to your own words, you want to have children when you are older. Believe me...you will feel differently then.
 
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rcorley

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I can't read futures. I'm making an educated assumption that if the coming regression if followed by a depression, 60 million extra kids won't help.

Follow this logic to its conclusion. It the world will benefit from fewer babies, why not just knock off everyone over 60? I mean...they're not really doing anything but taking up air. And they are...old. Besides, they've had a long life. The world would be better without them.

And while we're at it...let's get rid of all mentally/physically challenged people. They're not helping society. And they eat.... There you go. Let's get them out as well.

And what about all the people in Africa. I mean...seriously...they live in deserts. Their quality of life is horrible. And all of that starvation and disease and poverty - if they go, we can get rid of all that stuff. They will never have a good life because they are in a economic depression. Now we're down to what - a few billion worldwide?

What about the Chinese? That's a few billion. No...wait...who'd make our stuff. Got to keep them. But the French...

See the relativism of this argument? By the time you get to the end, you'd find yourself on the chopping block. THEN you'd probably have a problem.
 
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