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RND

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Need I say more?

I critisized your cite as being "Catholic doctrine." It was written by a member (the president) of the Catholic Biblical Association. Where's the issue?



I found this same information on the web myself. What denomination or theological persaution is Dr. Hiers? I believe that is the question I asked.

Have you more to offer than these men? Where are YOUR academic qualifications?

The fact that I can read and write should do it for you. Just because someone has spent alot of time at a university, got loads of letters behind their name, really ,eans nothing in understanding what the Bible is really saying.

How many times has Dr. Hiers been in a prison ministering to those locked-up? Give me that number and I might be impressed.

Would you also summarily dismiss them if these were afro Americans?

Not at all. Their skin color is insignificant.

Your position is nothing more than anti Catholic prejudice.

Nope, not at all. My position is that the Catholic doctrine is wrong and incorrect.

Provide the meat, or else you demonstrate the vacuity of your anti-Catholic bigotry

Of the writers of the dictionary cite you provided one is proven to be a Catholic. The other, I suspect, is also a Catholic. Hence the comment I made about the cite stands as far as I'm concerned.

BTW you have STILL not addressed the OP in that the SDA requires an errant autographa in order to state that 1844, etc. is supported by Daniel 8

I believe that to be the case, only because I didn't jump into this thread debating the OP. See post #21.

What I do believe I've shown the inaccuracy and fallaciousness of the Catholic doctrines and arguments you have offered.
 
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JohnT

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RND

Your silence on what I previously posted about your anti-Catholic bigotry is amazing.

Is that because you are unable to say anything good comes from Catholics--even if were the case in the case you cited?

Is it because you are unable to come up with anything substantial-- as you dismissed my post from a recognized Bible dictionary?

Since the absence of a valid response in these areas is so lacking, it does lead to other, personal questions needing to be asked. I will not go there, except to note that you do seem to be blinded by anyone or anything that remotely or indirectly--in your mind resembles Roman Catholicism.

That is a pathetic position in which to be.
 
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RND

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Your silence on what I previously posted about your anti-Catholic bigotry is amazing.

Is that because you are unable to say anything good comes from Catholics--even if were the case in the case you cited?

John, I've never said anything bad about any individual Catholics on this thread.

Is it because you are unable to come up with anything substantial-- as you dismissed my post from a recognized Bible dictionary?

Using a "Catholic" source to invalidate Seventh-day Adventist doctrine?


Yes John, it can indeed be devistating when the souces you cite to refute SDA doctrine are consistently poiunted out to you as being "Catholic" in nature and thus not even worth the paper they were originally printed on.

John, for the record I have no problem with any individual Catholic, just the false doctrines, rituals and teaching of Catholicism.
 
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JohnT

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RND

Let's face facts:

1) You utterly dismissed the source, Harper's Bible Dictionary because you allege that ONE of the authors is/may be Catholic.

Your dismissing the source contradicts the last statement in your post :I have no problem with any individual Catholic, just the false doctrines, rituals and teaching of Catholicism.. In no way was this presenting any false doctrine of the RC church.

You alleged that previously MERELY because he he is is/may be Catholic solely on the basis of his being an editor of a Catholic magazine.

Yoy utterly dismiss, and unwarrantably, I add that the HBD is a Roman Catholic source. You can not be more wrong.

I thank you for responding, but you have neither come up with another recognized source nor proof that HBD is a "catholic source"

Pardon, but your bigotry is showing. Answer what I have stated, or else the charge sticks.
 
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sentipente

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RND, where do you think the Adventist church, along with other Protestant churches, got the doctrine that the church is the final interpreter of information about God? That is fundamental Catholic doctrine developed by St. Thomas Aquinas. You are more Roman Catholic in your doctrine than you think.
 
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RND

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Let's face facts:

1) You utterly dismissed the source, Harper's Bible Dictionary because you allege that ONE of the authors is/may be Catholic.

Is Catholic.

And no I dismissed the doctrine itself as Catholic, not the author.

Your dismissing the source contradicts the last statement in your post :I have no problem with any individual Catholic, just the false doctrines, rituals and teaching of Catholicism.. In no way was this presenting any false doctrine of the RC church.

I'm sure that the gentleman or men responsible for printing this doctrine may indeed be fine men. That doesn't make their doctrine anymore correct John.

You alleged that previously MERELY because he he is is/may be Catholic solely on the basis of his being an editor of a Catholic magazine.

That's usually the way it works. BTW John, Professor Achtemeier isn't merely an "editor" of a magazine but rather the president of the Catholic Biblical Association.

Yoy utterly dismiss, and unwarrantably, I add that the HBD is a Roman Catholic source. You can not be more wrong.

I dismissed the doctrine you quoted as being from Roman Catholicism John.

I thank you for responding, but you have neither come up with another recognized source nor proof that HBD is a "catholic source"

Um, if it looks like a fish, swims like a fish and in this case smells like a fish, it's most likely a fish.

Pardon, but your bigotry is showing. Answer what I have stated, or else the charge sticks.

Neiner, neiner, neiner to you to John.
 
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RND

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Dear Lord senti the NADGC has absolutely -zero- influence in what I believe as an Adventist.
 
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JohnT

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Is Catholic.

And no I dismissed the doctrine itself as Catholic, not the author.
What EXACTLY is the "Catholic doctrine" in that post? Is it "Roman Catholic" if other protestants believe it. or should the Roman Catholics be called in question for believing something that many Protestants also believe?

I'm sure that the gentleman or men responsible for printing this doctrine may indeed be fine men. That doesn't make their doctrine anymore correct John.
You have not supplied ANY other source for that definition of the terms I posted. Would you call this also "Roman Catholic"?
1. The Historical Background:

Since the invasion of the Assyrians and Chaldeans, the Jewish people, both of the Northern and of the Southern kingdom, had been without political independence. From the Chaldeans the rulership of Judea had been transferred to the Persians, and from the Persians, after an interval of 200 years, to Alexander the Great. From the beginning of the Persian sovereignty, the Jews had been permitted to organize anew their religious and political commonwealth, thus establishing a state under the rulership of priests, for the high priest was not only the highest functionary of the cult, but also the chief magistrate in so far as these prerogatives were not exercised by the king of the conquering nation. Ezra had given a new significance to the Torah by having it read to the whole congregation of Israel and by his vigorous enforcement of the law of separation from the Gentiles.

His emphasis of the law introduced the period of legalism and finical interpretation of the letter which called forth some of the bitterest invectives of our Saviour. Specialists of the law known as "scribes" devoted themselves to its study and subtle interpretation, and the pious beheld the highest moral accomplishment in the extremely conscientious observance of every precept. But in opposition to this class, there were those who, influenced by the Hellenistic culture, introduced by the conquests of Alexander the Great, were inclined to a more "liberal" policy. Thus, two opposing parties were developed: the Hellenistic, and the party of the Pious, or the Chasidim, chacidhim (Hasidaeans, 1 Macc 2:42; 7:13), who held fast to the strict ideal of the scribes. The former gradually came into ascendancy. Judea was rapidly becoming Hellenistic in all phases of its political, social and religious life, and the "Pious" were dwindling to a small minority sect. This was the situation when Antiochus Epiphanes set out to suppress the last vestige of the Jewish cult by the application of brute force.

2. Antiochus Epiphanes:

Antiochus IV, son of Antiochus the Great, became the successor of his brother, Seleucus IV, who had been murdered by his minister, Heliodorus, as king of Syria (175-164 BC). He was by nature a despot; eccentric and unreliable; sometimes a spendthrift in his liberality, fraternizing in an affected manner with those of lower station; sometimes cruel and tyrannical, as witness his aggressions against Judea. Polybius (26 10) tells us that his eccentric ideas caused some to speak of him as a man of pure motive and humble character, while others hinted at insanity. The epithet Epiphanes is an abbreviation of theos epiphanes, which is the designation given himself by Antiochus on his coins, and means "the god who appears or reveals himself." Egyptian writers translate the inscription, "God which comes forth," namely, like the burning sun, Horos, on the horizon, thus identifying the king with the triumphal, appearing god.

When Antiochus Epiphanes arose to the throne, Onias III, as high priest, was the leader of the old orthodox party in Judea; the head of the Hellenists was his own brother Jesus, or, as he preferred to designate himself, Jason, this being the Greek form of his name and indicating the trend of his mind. Jason promised the king large sums of money for the transfer of the office of high priest from his brother to himself and the privilege of erecting a gymnasium and a temple to Phallus, and for the granting of the privilege "to enroll the inhabitants of Jerusalem as citizens of Antioch." Antiochus gladly agreed to everything. Onias was removed, Jason became high priest, and henceforth the process of Hellenizing Judea was pushed energetically. The Jewish cult was not attacked, but the "legal institutions were set aside, and illegal practices were introduced" (2 Macc 4:11).

A gymnasium was erected outside the castle; the youth of Jerusalem exercised themselves in the gymnastic art of the Greeks, and even priests left their services at the altar to take part in the contest of the palaestra. The disregard of Jewish custom went so far that many artificially removed the traces of circumcision from their bodies, and with characteristic liberality, Jason even sent a contribution to the sacrifices in honor of Heracles on the occasion of the quadrennial festivities in Tyre.
From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia



That's usually the way it works. BTW John, Professor Achtemeier isn't merely an "editor" of a magazine but rather the president of the Catholic Biblical Association.
Guilt by association! POOR LOGIC!!!



I dismissed the doctrine you quoted as being from Roman Catholicism, John.
No, it was from the Harper's Bible Dictionary. It is NOT a Catholic dictionary. Your prejudice is showing again!


Um, if it looks like a fish, swims like a fish and in this case smells like a fish, it's most likely a fish.
Would you say that about other sources, also not having anything to do with the RC church, and agreeing with the HBD?

If that be so, then you are hopelessly bigoted. You spew out the term "Roman Catholic" with the same sort of hatred which that a northern cracker does as he slanderously utters the N-word.

Your position is to be pitied for I have respectfully asked you now three times for other Bible Dictionaries saying differently, You have supplied nothing but your prejudice as a response to that.

I ask in all sincerity, and not flaming you nor the SDA church, but is that sort of bigoted hatred that they teach you in Sabbath School and in the pulpits?
 
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RND

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John, it appears that the false notions expressed in the OP have been proven so well that you have totally abandoned arguing those points in favor of arguing non-sense and terminology.

Hey, if that suits you that's fine with me too.

What EXACTLY is the "Catholic doctrine" in that post?

That placing of the "anti-christ" in historical context completely foreign to scripture. Remember, I mentioned that if 2300 days were not prophetic years and were literal days that they would amount to a scant 6.38 years? Yet, you have in no way addressed this crucial point.

The notion that Antiochus is the anti-christ fails the proper historical context because if you account the 2300 days with him then you time frame fails by several hundred years.

It is made up fantasy that has been bought hook, line and sinker by the eschatologically challenged.

John, could you help me out with the 6.38 years thing? I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts.

Is it "Roman Catholic" if other protestants believe it.

You mean like Sunday sacredness that most all protestant churches have bought, completely ignoring the plain word of scripture? Yes.

or should the Roman Catholics be called in question for believing something that many Protestants also believe?

Depends on what it is they are beliving.


Historical data aside, how does Antiochus fit in with the time prophecies of Daniel 7 and 8? Answer: He doesn't.


Guilt by association! POOR LOGIC!!!

Listen John, no one gets to be president of the Catholic Bible Association withour being a Catholic. The notion that someone would be or could be is like suggesting a Muslim will be Pope one day.

No, it was from the Harper's Bible Dictionary. It is NOT a Catholic dictionary. Your prejudice is showing again!

But it apparently uses "Catholic" doctrine and teaching. That's not prejudice by pointing out simple fact John.

Would you say that about other sources, also not having anything to do with the RC church, and agreeing with the HBD?

If the are printing and accepting Catholic doctrine as fact? Yes, yes I would.

If that be so, then you are hopelessly bigoted. You spew out the term "Roman Catholic" with the same sort of hatred which that a northern cracker does as he slanderously utters the N-word.

Northern cracker? N-word? Gee, who's the bigot around here? I've never implied or suggested any such thing when I simply pointed out that a source you cited is using RCC doctrine. It is a simple fact that the source you cited is using RCC doctrine. A fact.

If you want to equate pointing out a know fact to using derogitory terms that's your business but it is as far from the truth as possible.

But seeing as how the argument of your OP has been shown to be false and full of holes I guess I shouldn't expect any more.

Your position is to be pitied for I have respectfully asked you now three times for other Bible Dictionaries saying differently, You have supplied nothing but your prejudice as a response to that
.

You've asked for no such thing from me.

I ask in all sincerity, and not flaming you nor the SDA church, but is that sort of bigoted hatred that they teach you in Sabbath School and in the pulpits?

Actually that is a flame because I have never said anything negetive about any indivisual Catholics, merely Catholic doctrine, which you cited. If you want to call the non-acceptance of false teaching and doctrine from the Catholics "bigoted" that's your prerogative, but we all know that is as far from the truth as the doctrine you cited.
 
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RND

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But he pegged you exactly right.

No, I'm afraid he didn't senti. He had to devolve the argument away from his OP and project it on to me because he found that the eschatological position weak and unable to stand against the relevant facts that the prophecies of Daniel 7 and 8 clearly point to.

Once it was pointed out to John that he had no standing regarding the 2300 day prophecy (a point he has never answered) when it was pointed out that that if the day/year principal did not apply and 2300 days would actually be 6.38 years and there is no historical event that corresponds to this 6.38 year position he had to devolve the conversation into something that took the magnifying glass off his OP and project a diversion to something else, me in this case.

The fact of the matter is that John can not and will not touch this "hot potato" because it shows him and the Catholic doctrine he cited as being incorrect.
 
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RND

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What would that have to do with anything if you have no idea of when such a prophecy would start? In that you have neither a start date or an end date you wind up being on extremely shacky theological ground.

Yet you decry Adventists for our belief in the sound doctrine of the Investigative Judgment and we have much more of a theological loeg to stand on.

There are many web sites that offer fancy theories that Antiochus Epiphanes is the "anti-christ."

Here's something from one that tells us the dates that somehow you say are impossible to gather.

"Either understanding is possible, but it is more likely that this means 2,300 days. The date when the temple was cleansed is well established as December 25, 165 B.C. If we count back 2,300 days from then, we come to the year when Antiochus Epiphanes began his persecution in earnest (171 B.C.)."


There are a number of well known theologians that have adopted the year/day principle has a sound eschatological teaching, amoung them are Adam Clarke.


The vision of Daniel 8 is the same as Daniel 7 that's basic theology brother John.
 
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Pythons

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Senti, are you saying the NADGC has dominion over what you believe and what you think?
RND,

If you are a Seventh-day Adventist worth your weight in salt you do believe and accept what the NADGC tells you to believe and accept, because it's the highest authority God has upon the earth.

In laymen's terms, despite how feverish or lengthly your mental gymnastics are, your own private judgement on what the Bible really means is trumped when the GC speaks ex-cathedra.

Welcome to the theology of a Magisterium RND. As a Catholic I've accepted it as a matter of faith and as an SDA your fealty is sworn to the religious body your prophet told you to swear to.

Feel free to pick up on the Trinity issue in the debate section.
 
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RND

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You are obviously badly mistaken.

I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist because of the GC, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist because of it is the denomination most closely aligned with true Bibical teaching. I had never heard of the GC prior to becoming an Adventist.

But let's try to stay on topic Pythons.
 
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