Immanuel ~ Who is the virgin?

[Sephania]

My hope is that we can discuss this amicably.


Isaiah Chapter 7

1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it. 2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind. {S} 3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field; 4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah. 5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying: 6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel; {P}

7 thus saith the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. 8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people; 9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.' {P}

10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' 12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' 13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. 17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.' {P}

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. 19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the rugged valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all brambles. 20 In that day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired in the parts beyond the River, even with the king of Assyria, the head and the hair of the feet; and it shall also sweep away the beard. {P}

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall rear a young cow, and two sheep; 22 and it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give, he shall eat curd; for curd and honey shall every one eat that is left in the midst of the land. {S} 23 And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, shall even be for briers and thorns. 24 With arrows and with bow shall one come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns. 25 And all the hills that were digged with the mattock, thou shalt not come thither for fear of briers and thorns, but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of sheep. {P}





Isaiah Chapter 8

1 And the LORD said unto me: 'Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it in common script: The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth; 2 and I will take unto Me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.' 3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son. {S} Then said the LORD unto me: 'Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz. 4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried away before the king of Assyria.' {S} 5 And the LORD spoke unto me yet again, saying: 6 Forasmuch as this people hath refused the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoiceth with Rezin and Remaliah's son; 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the River, mighty and many, even the king of Assyria and all his glory; and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks; 8 And he shall sweep through Judah overflowing as he passeth through he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. {S} 9 Make an uproar, O ye peoples, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces. 10 Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand; for God is with us. {S} 11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, admonishing me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying: 12 'Say ye not: A conspiracy, concerning all whereof this people do say: A conspiracy; neither fear ye their fear, nor account it dreadful. 13 The LORD of hosts, Him shall ye sanctify; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. 14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.' {P}

16 'Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction among My disciples.' 17 And I will wait for the LORD, that hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me shall be for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion. {S} 19 And when they shall say unto you: 'Seek unto the ghosts and the familiar spirits, that chirp and that mutter; should not a people seek unto their God? on behalf of the living unto the dead 20 for instruction and for testimony?'--Surely they will speak according to this word, wherein there is no light.-- 21 And they shall pass this way that are sore bestead and hungry; and it shall come to pass that, when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse by their king and by their God, and, whether they turn their faces upward, 22 or look unto the earth, behold distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish, and outspread thick darkness. 23 For is there no gloom to her that was stedfast? Now the former hath lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but the latter hath dealt a more grievous blow by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in the district of the nations.





Please note the scriptures I have highlighted. Now reconcile that with:

Matthew 1
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[YHVH Ori]

The simple answer is that Matthew 1:18-25 was an addition to the Book of Matthew; meaning that Matthew did not write Matthew 1:18-25. It's too long to post here, so check out my post at my board concerning this issue: http pub92.ezboard com/fthewayofyhvhfrm1.showMessage?topicID=33.topic

Add :// after http, and add . after ezboard.

 

[Sephania]

Thank you, but I would like this discussion to remain here. Can you provide evidence that this was added, and why?

 

[INOrder]

Hello Zayit

and all readers,

since i do not believe that I am allowed to debate the person noted by the prophet was a girl of marriageable age.

Who was this girl?
this girl was the wife of the prophet as his prophecy is soon fulfilled after he utters the words concerning this "virgin".

and Ori provides something that I believe is questionable.
however who am I to argue?
But please take this into consideration,
maybe Matthew is only trying to apply that statement to his messiah.
After all, if they were in fact Jews, would they not use the traditions of writing of the Jewish Masters?

I dont know if this Jesus was born from an actual virgin or not; but in my scope I dont see a "virgin" birth. I see a girl who is called Mariam betrothed to a guy named Josef, and the same thing is happening , i am guessing, that happened to the wife of Isaiah.

that is just my two shekalim
but you guys are the ones that know how to interpret your books.
So I really dont have great insight to your writings

bye

 

[Talmidah]

I'm at work, so don't have time to write long, but here is a link that gives a good explanation of the 'virgin birth'
http://www.kosherjudaism.com/virginbirth.html

Here is a little snippet from that site:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]…When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit [9] .[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]…Now, all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they will call his name “Emmanuel”, G-d is with us.” [10] [/font]


​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let’s also look at the correct translation of the verse. I will highlight the corrected areas:[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Therefore He, my Lord, shall give to you a sign. Behold! The young woman (ahlmah) is with child, and shall bring forth a son and she will call his name Emanu-El.[/font]


​

[/font]

 

[INOrder]

Hi Talmidah,

that is an intresting web-site... are they Jews or messianics?

That web-site looks like a site geared against this messianic site found at afii.org
which speaks other wise from kosherjudaism.

Do you know of this site that poses itself as some kind of Chassidic Judaism?

bye

 

[ILY]

Shalom all,
I was curious to know when Isaiah had a child named Emmanuel?

Shalom v shalom
ILY<><

 

[YHVH Ori]

Thank you, but I would like this discussion to remain here. Can you provide evidence that this was added, and why?

I didn't provide that link to change the discussion or to bring the discussion to my board. It's just that link has format and it's long. I explain on the link why it is an addition. If you want to quote from it and discuss it here, that would be great.

The Messiah was never referred to as "Immanuel", he was referred to as "hO Ihsous."

 

[ILY]

Shalom,
The topic asked who the virgin is, so my point is if anyone is contending that it is Isaiah's wife, then when did anyone even reference his child as Emmanuel?

Shabbat Shalom
ILY:<><

 

[Sephania]

I'm at work, so don't have time to write long, but here is a link that gives a good explanation of the 'virgin birth'
http://www.kosherjudaism.com/virginbirth.html

Here is a little snippet from that site:

Glad to see this thread has not attracked too much attention, probably because so much scripture is involved.

I went to that site and have found a few curious things there.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Would it be probable that G-d would cause a virgin birth to be prophesied (which He didn’t) and then secretly cause it to occur so that no one would witness the miracle? If such a prophesy did exist, it would make it impossible to confirm, because any pregnant woman could claim to have conceived immaculately and such a person’s claim would be no less valid than that of Mary.[/font]

That brings up a good point, what good is a miracle if no one can witness it. Aren't two required for witness? [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is a problem with such a statement because the Septuagint, the Torah that was translated by Jews, did not include the works of the prophets, which was translated by Christians for Christians. [/font]

To my knowledge the Torah and Septuagint are not the same thing. Tenakh perhaps but why would he say this?

More when I finish reading.

[/font]

 

[Henaynei]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
To my knowledge the Torah and Septuagint are not the same thing. Tenakh perhaps but why would he say this? [/font]

The Septuagint is the T'NaKah (Torah, Ketuvim, Nevi'im - aka OT) translated from the Hebrew into Greek.

 

[Sephania]

Ah, yes the original Hebrew translation by the "seventy" is what he is referring to, which only did include the Torah.


So again its a matter of translation.

 

[Sephania]

Another interesting tidbit:

As Jews, we cannot accept that the infinite Source of the Universe would father a hero in the manner of the myths of the Greco-Roman father deities.

That makes sense to me because this would then make Jesus just one in a long line of sons of gods, no?

 

[Henaynei]

Another interesting tidbit:
That makes sense to me because this would then make Jesus just one in a long line of sons of gods, no?

One difference I see is that their "gods" were actual flesh and could be killed - where as G-d is spirit and had no flesh.

Therefore it was not the union of two fleshes creating a mongrel, but the union of Divine Spirit housed in all too human flesh. Whe Hercules died the "god" part died with him. When Yeshua died G-d did not die.

 

[ShirChadash]

*quietly watching this thread with interest...*

 

[RVincent]

The First Fulfilment of
Prophecy in The New Testament
(Matthew 1:22, 23. Isaiah 7:14).
This Is Appendix 103 From The Companion Bible.​

I. Prophecy is the word of Yahoveh (2 Peter 1:21); and, as Yahoveh is He Who was, and is, and is to come, prophecy must partake of, and relate to, the past, present, and future also; and must have this threefold interpretation or application. The prophecy first quoted by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will show us how He uses the prophecy which He had Himself inspired; and therefore will furnish us with the principles on which we are to interpret other prophecies.

It will be seen that a prophecy may have (1) a reference to the time and occasion on which it was first spoken; (2) a reference to a later event or circumstances (when it is quoted as having been "spoken", or "written"); and (3) a reference to a yet later or future or final event, which exhausts it (when it is quoted as being "fulfilled;" i.e. filled full).

Hence, instead of speaking of "praeterists" and "futurists", we must sometimes take a larger view, and be prepared to see both a past, present and future interpretation.

II. The subject of this first quoted prophecy (Isaiah 7:14) is Messiah, Christ the Lord; for "the testimony concerning Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10).


III. Prophecy is always associated with man's failure, from Genesis 3 onward. There was no place for prophecy until man had failed; or for prophets, until the priests became absorbed in their ritual, and ceased to be God's spokesman, and the teachers of His word. Hence, God's true prophets and teachers of His word have always been opposed to the pretensions of priests.

IV. This prophecy was originally uttered when AHAZ king of Judah, in a great crisis, had failed to ask the sign which Jehovah had proffered; and which He Himself afterward gave to Ahaz. It therefore of necessity had reference to the then present circumstances. There was evidently a certain damsel, spoken of as "the" well known damsel (see the note on "virgin", Isaiah 7:14), in connection with whom this prophecy should find a then speedy accomplishment. And it evidently did so, or it would have been no "sign" to Ahaz, as nothing would have been signified by it.

But it is equally true that that did not exhaust it, for only a part of the whole prophecy was then fulfilled.

The prophecy begins at Isaiah 7:10, and runs on to Isaiah 9:7. It is clearly wrong, therefore, to take a part, and put it for the whole; for it reaches on to future Millennial times, and is connected with the glorious coming of Messiah.

The whole prophecy, therefore, is Messianic; and, although the first part had a partial and preliminary fulfillment at the time it was spoken, it cannot be separated from the last part, which takes in the fact that the "children" are used as symbolical "signs." For it ends by declaring that they "are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in Mount Zion" (Isaiah 8:18). The two parts are connected and linked together by the use of the word "Immanuel" (7:14 and 8:8, 10, Revised Version margin).

1.-THE PAST.​

As to the past; it is clear from the prophecy that Ahaz, greatly moved at the confederacy of Ephraim (put by Metonymy, Appendix 6, for Israel) with Syria, was tempted to make a counter-confederacy with the king of Assyria. A sign was given to him that he need not yield to the temptation, for the danger would pass away. That "sign" must have had a signification for Ahaz that would convince him of the truth of the prophets' words. The sign was that a man-child would be born to some certain and well-known maiden (for it is Ha-'Almah-"the maiden"), which man-child would be called Immanuel; and, before that child would know how to distinguish between good and evil, the kings of Ephraim and Syria would both be removed. No record of this birth is given; but it must have taken place; as Jehovah gave the sign for that very purpose.

In chapter 8 another "sign" was given to Ahaz. Another child would be born, this time to the prophetess. He too, would have a fore-determined name-Maher-shalal-hash-baz; and, before he should be able to say "father" or "mother", both Syria and Ephraim should be spoiled by the king of Assyria.

II.-THE FUTURE.​

In chapter. 9:6 there is a third sign, and again it is a child. It is a sign connected with the future; or rather one that connects the first sign with this and with the future.

"Unto us a child is born,
Unto us a son is given."​

This child is also forenamed, and the name is "Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". And the prophecy closes by declaring that His kingdom shall have no end; and shall be associated with the throne of David.

There were, altogether, four "children" who were set "for signs and for wonders in Israel by the LORD of hosts" (8:18). Two were only "signs", but two were "wonders", and they are given, and placed, in alternate correspondence.

A | SHEAR-JASHUB, 7:3 (The son of the Prophet), a "sign".
___ B | IMMANUEL, 7:14, a "wonder".
A | MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ, 8:1-3 (The son of the Prophet), a "sign".
___ B | "WONDERFUL", etc., 9:6, 7, a "wonder".

Does not this point to the fact that the child of chapter 7:14 is to be associated with the child of chapter 9:6? and, though it was a "sign" of events then transpiring, those events did not and could not exhaust it or the "wonders" to which it pointed.

The names also of these "children" are signs. The meaning of the name Isaiah was itself a sign of that salvation of Yahoveh of which he prophesied.

i. SHEAR-JASHUR (7:3) meant the remnant shall return, i.e. repent, and stay upon Jehovah, and wait for Him.
ii. IMMANUEL (7:14) told of the fact that salvation would come to Israel only when God with us should be true as a blessed and glorious reality.
iii. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ (8:1-3) tells of the Assyrian hasting to make a prey and spoil of the nation, and reveals the need of the salvation of Jehovah. That too, was only partially fulfilled. For there is another who is called "the Assyrian", and in Daniel 9:26 is called "the prince that shall come" (cp. Isaiah 14:25). He will hasten to make a prey of the nation; but there is yet another-Emmanuel, the Prince of the Covenant-Who will destroy him and bring in, for Israel, final and eternal salvation. His name is called,
iv. "WONDERFUL"-"THE PRINCE OF PEACE."

3-THE PRESENT.​

But what is happening now-as a present application of this great prophecy? What else is signified by these "signs"? Jehovah has been hiding His face from the house of Jacob (8:17). What is this "stone of stumbling"? What is this "rock of offence to both the houses of Israel" which causeth the Lord to hide His face? Is it not the rejection of Messiah as the Immanuel of Isaiah 7:14? And is He not the "Child born" of chapter 9:6, 7?

Thus, (1) in this first use of His own prophecy (Isaiah 7:14) in Matthew 1:22, 23, the Holy Spirit takes the words out of their original combinations to which their first utterance refers.

(2) The prophecy is then resolved into its elements, and by the same Spirit Who gave it, the elements are re-combined in accordance with the Divine purpose.

(3) He takes up the threads of the whole prophecy (Isaiah 7:10; 9:7), and shows that the original circumstances did not allow of the complete fulfillment at the time the words were spoken and written; and finally,

(4) He connects the names and meanings with prophetic truth, and shows that even these looked forward to times and scenes far beyond their original use; so that even the IMMANUEL of 7:14 which was fulfilled in Matthew 1:22, 23 did not exhaust the IMMANUEL of Isaiah 8:10, which is yet future according to Luke 1:31, 33.