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We are never instructed to to hold fast to traditions or instructions which are outside of scripture. We are instructed to keep only the instructions of those who also wrote scripture. That's the context. We are also instructed by John to keep what was given in the beginning. He said that we need no teacher. In essance John is saying all we need is the scripture and the holy spirit.
If we study scripture instead of listening to teachers, we will see that what we are taught is so simple that nothing needs added to it.
I hear where you are coming from. However, the Word of God is handed on both orally and in writing. Nobody in Scripture teaches the idea that Scripture stands alone. Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions just as they were given, whether orally or by letter. That is the living word of God. So our job is to find the true Church and hold fast to what she hands on to us, whether in writing or orally. So I have to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter, because that's exactly what Scripture and the Church say. Otherwise I would not be following the Word of God. The Word of God teaches that Mary is the Immaculate New Eve, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our God, whom she conceived in her womb. As Scripture says, she is named "Having-Been-Filled-With-Grace" and "She Who Believed".
Which, though it may may you feel better, is a mere bare assertion, a soliloquy in lieu of an argument and ignores/avoids what i provided, as some of RC doctrine is indeed contrary to the evidence.The Bible--the Book of the Catholic Church--never contradicts Catholic doctrine, which is the Word of God.
The Bible well supports the Word of God about the Immaculate Conception. The Papacy--established by Christ in the Apostle Rock-- is right to testify to the inspiration of Scripture and Tradition (together, the Word of God) and to the truth about the Mother of God
There is no true Church. Not one in particular anyway. There is only the word of Christ and our faith. What do Catholics, or any other Church, have that i do not? Nothing that i can see, except maybe more religious stuff to worry about, stuff that the Lord never gave to us nor intended to. They can worship that way if they want, i wont stand in there way, not that anyone could anyway, but i worship God just as he instructed us, to the best of my ability. I know in my heart that God didn't really ask that much of us. What more do i need besides a bible, the spirit, and fellowship with other believers? Is there something more?
Which, though it may may you feel better, is a mere bare assertion, a soliloquy in lieu of an argument and ignores/avoids what i provided, as some of RC doctrine is indeed contrary to the evidence.
In addition, it is also not enough to hold that the Bible never contradicts Catholic doctrine, as what is needed is for you to say that Bible never fails to provide warrant for Catholic doctrine, which it certainly does.
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I don't experience the Church, which Christ founded on Rock (Matthew 16:18--hope that's the right verse)--as a burden. I find it to be a home, the heart of which is our Immaculate Mother, who brings us to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A family needs a book. But it also needs more than a book. It needs to communicate the truth through real presence. She Who Believed helps us to understand the Scripture "I have much more to write you, but I want to do so not with pen and ink, but through talking face to face".
I don't think the Bible says that any Catholic teaching contradicts the Bible. In fact, the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church, and not by itself.
Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions as they were handed on, whether orally or by letter?
The Immaculate Conception is part of the Word of God, and as such I believe it.
Jesus started a new tradition:
Luke 10:16
'Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
I would not lightly reject those sent by Jesus if I were you.
Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter?
I think the Sacred Scriptures of the Catholic Church are one with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible--like the Magisterium-- is part of Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God.. Within the Church, the Holy Spirit and His Spouse, Our Lady, leads us to the truth about Mary, about Jesus, and about the Trinity.
Nobody in Scripture teaches the idea that Scripture stands alone. .
Which, with its presuppositions, was much dealt with at length (and ignored) on the last page, and one of the problems is that this not only presumes that 2Thes. 2:15 is not simply referring to oral preaching of Scriptural truths, obedience to which a SS preacher may also enjoin, even of those who have no Bible, but with the veracity of which dependent upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. Which is what the NT established its Truth claims by.Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions just as they were given, whether orally or by letter.
That is your very problem. The veracity of such traditions rests upon the tradition of of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, by which you are assured the Assumption is true, regardless of even the lack of warrant for it. Which is not how the NT church began, but it what cults operate under!That is the living word of God. So our job is to find the true Church and hold fast to what she hands on to us, whether in writing or orally.
That is absurd, as "the word of God" is not that which was established on the basis that the writings of Scripture were which the NT church appealed to, but "the word of God" is whatever Rome says it is, since she has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.So I have to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter, because that's exactly what Scripture and the Church say. Otherwise I would not be following the Word of God.
Rather, Rome says she is, and thus you must believe it, but the wholly inspired word of God does not teach the IM.The Word of God teaches that Mary is the Immaculate New Eve
Which is not unique of Mary, nor does Scripture say she is "full of grace" which it says of the Lord Jesus. (Jn. 1:14)As Scripture says, she is named "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace" and "She Who Believed"
I think the Sacred Scriptures of the Catholic Church are one with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible--like the Magisterium-- is part of Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God.. Within the Church, the Holy Spirit and His Spouse, Our Lady, leads us to the truth about Mary, about Jesus, and about the Trinity.
Paul never mentions the Immaculate Mother.
The holy spirit is our helper, not Mary.
Jesus is the only name we pray in and are saved in, and God is the only one we pray to.
That's Paul's example and tradition, which the Catholic Church is NOT following. They don't follow Paul's tradition.
Why then do you think that they are following tradition? Who's tradition? Not the apostles tradition.
Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. r.
Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Spouses work together. In Luke 1:44 the Holy Spirit is given through the voice of His Spouse, our Lady.
We are never instructed to to hold fast to traditions or instructions which are outside of scripture. We are instructed to keep only the instructions of those who also wrote scripture. That's the context. We are also instructed by John to keep what was given in the beginning. He said that we need no teacher. In essance John is saying all we need is the scripture and the holy spirit.
If we study scripture instead of listening to teachers, we will see that what we are taught is so simple that nothing needs added to it.
1. The Immaculate Conception is mentioned nowhere in the entire Bible. I thought you knew that - since 155 posts and still not one text speaking about Mary's mother or any need for Mary to be born sinless like Christ.
2. The fact that you think the Bible fully supports all Catholic doctrine - is a good sign for a Catholic. I would not want to be a Catholic that believed that the Bible says Catholic doctrine is wrong - but I am Catholic "Anyway".
Ok so -- going with the first definition then.
"A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma."
In Mark 7:6-13 Christ addresses the point "teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men".
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Spouses work together. In Luke 1:44 the Holy Spirit is given through the voice of His Spouse, our Lady. All graces are given from God the Father, through the Son (the One Mediator), and in the Holy Spirit and Mary. Yes, Jesus's Name is the one name by which we are saved, because He mediates between us and the Father. Also, She Who Believed (Luke 1:45) mediates between us and Jesus Christ, who is also God and is equal to the Father. Therefore, we have an Immaculate Mediatrix with Christ, in Mary, our spiritual Mother.
With due regard for your rejection of the cultic Catholic doctrine, your argument is not sound. What you should say is that while we are to prove all teaching by Scripture, and have no need of teachers who presume a unique esoteric anointing to reveal secret coded truths, like the Gnostics John was evidently referring to, yet we have need of others, both writers of Scripture as well as those who have the gift of teaching, which it speaks of.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13)
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:14)
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:15-16)
But we are "not to think of men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) as per Catholicism, but,
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good,". (1 Thessalonians 5:21) with a heart like the noble Bereans, and which faithful RCs are not to do in order to ascertain the veracity of official RC teaching.
It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors . - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.
Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law... - Providentissimus Deus, (On the Study of Holy Scripture), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, dated November 18th, 1893.
“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means",
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