Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

If you go back and find other Marian threads you will see ancient heresies that have crept into some protestant congregations.

Peace

What would compell a person to do such a thing!

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I was wondering were you where.
Peace

terryobrien80 said:

An Idol is a false God or something you place above God.
Mary is a real person, the mother of the Christ.

Your statement is in error.

Thanks for playing

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It became an idol when people started worshipping her and any manifestation of her in toast, bagles, and ghosts claiming that they look like her.

mont974x4 said:

It became an idol when people started worshipping her and any manifestation of her in toast, bagles, and ghosts claiming that they look like her.

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"It"? Did you just call her "It"? You wouldnt do that to you OWN mother! But you'd say that of Jesus' mother? You should really retract that remark.

IT, is a picture of a woman, nothing more nothing less...unless you'd like to admit that IT is an idol.

It became an idol when people started worshipping her and any manifestation of her in toast, bagles, and ghosts claiming that they look like her.

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1. Yes It would be an Idol if people are worshipping her ot "IT."

2. It would not be an idol if people are not worshipping her but are showing her respect.

3. To determine if people are worshipping her (which is wrong and the CC does not teach to worship her BTW.) Then one would also need to know the interior motive of a person's outside actions.

Your trying to make a blanket statement about something that needs to be looked at individual case by case.



Peace

lionroar0 said:

If you go back and find other Marian threads you will see ancient heresies that have crept into some protestant congregations.

Peace

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If you have in mind the rejection of theotokos then those protestants are correct.

lionroar0 said:

1. Yes It would be an Idol if people are worshipping her ot "IT."

2. It would not be an idol if people are not worshipping her but are showing her respect.

3. To determine if people are worshipping her (which is wrong and the CC does not teach to worship her BTW.) Then one would also need to know the interior motive of a person's outside actions.

Your trying to make a blanket statement about something that needs to be looked at individual case by case.



Peace

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It is worship.

1. People apply deistic properties to her and other "saints"

2. We are to pray to God alone

Brennin said:

If you have in mind the rejection of theotokos then those protestants are correct.

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Hi, Brennin.

May I ask what it is about "Theotokos" that you reject?
Thanks.

Mary

Brennin said:

If you have in mind the rejection of theotokos then those protestants are correct.

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What does this mean? You reject that Christ was fully God and fully man from the moment of conception, His two natures being indivisible, and thus Mary bore God in her womb? Because that's all the term "theotokos" means.

sunlover1 said:

But Tdig.
We dont KNOW this,
this is just a theory.
How COULD we know this?

sunlover

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Same way we know God exisits and that Jesus is his begotten not made son and with the Holy spirit are one God. It is faith. When Jesus died and ressurected he sent his apostles out to spread the word that the Messiah has come. Jesus entrusted these men with the entire deposit of Faith.

"The apostles entrusted the sacred deposit of the faith [the depositum fidei; see 1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14] contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. 'By adhering to (this heritage) the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread [the Eucharist] and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.'"

Both Oral Tradition and Scripture come from the same divine breath. A shorthand formula for this is:
Deposit of Faith = Sacred Oral Tradition + Sacred Scriptures

Oral Tradition--Jesus commissioned the Apostles to "go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you" (Mt.28: 19-20).

He promised that the Holy Spirit would "instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I have told you" (John 14:26).

Just before his ascension into heaven Jesus said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation" (Mk16:15).

He commanded them to do precisely what He himself had done, namely, deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice and granted them, through the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues. He told them, "He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
It was by this oral Apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which books should be included in the New Testament. Many were already in use in the house churches (Christianity was "underground" for three centuries and much persecuted) St. Augustine endorses the same position when he says: "I should not believe the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church" (Con. epist. Manichaei, fundam., n. 6). As St. Paul urged in his epistle, 2 Thessalonians 2: 15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

The only Church in existance that I know of that Claims to have the whole deposit of Faith is the Catholic Church... Eastern Orthodox might believe they do also... Not sure but since they hold onto apostolic succession I don't see why the EO wouldn't have this Deposit of knowledge, but if the schism that occured around the 1000 year mark of christianity seperated them from it, and the countless assults to christianity on the eastern side of the world over the last 1000 years could have corrupted or lost some of this deposit.

As seen in Japan with the Kakure Kirishitan. I do hope we can one day be united again as Christians instead of CC, EO, Protestant, but it comes down to accepting the whole faith and not the parts that you agree with and reject the parts that you don't agree with. Like England did when the King kicked out the church and declared himself Pope and apointed himself bishops and priests to teach his form of "chrisitanity" in England giving him athority of marring and killing off his wives and divorcing them because they wouldn't bear him a male child.

Mary's Immaculate conception is part of this tradition held onto by the church through all ages. No matter how corrupt or off base the Men in the church acted they have never been able to change this Faith. It is protected by the Holy spirit and anything done to corrupt the deposit of faith is prevented by God.

Tdigaetano said:

Same way we know God exisits and that Jesus is his begotten not made son and with the Holy spirit are one God. It is faith. When Jesus died and ressurected he sent his apostles out to spread the word that the Messiah has come. Jesus entrusted these men with the entire deposit of Faith.

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He did.
And they wrote it down for their posterity.
And we have it. But this was never stated,
or even implied, was it?

Oral Tradition--Jesus commissioned the Apostles to "go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you" (Mt.28: 19-20).

He promised that the Holy Spirit would "instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I have told you" (John 14:26).

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He commanded them to do precisely what He himself had done, namely, deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice and granted them, through the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues. He told them, "He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)

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It was by this oral Apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which books should be included in the New Testament.

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Not really. Actually they deliberated, and used
the Scripture as the rule to choose which books
were in agreement with that.
As did the Bereans.
We ALWAYS have to check against scripture
to make sure that what we hear is so, right?

As St. Paul urged in his epistle, 2 Thessalonians 2: 15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

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Right, some heard first hand by word of mouth,
others by reading the letters.
And we do have the 'letter' now. But we cannot
hear their word by their mouths. Written is what we
have. But it's what they'd have SPOKEN anyhow.

The only Church in existance that I know of that Claims to have the whole deposit of Faith is the Catholic Church... Eastern Orthodox might believe they do also... Not sure but since they hold onto apostolic succession I don't see why the EO wouldn't have this Deposit of knowledge, but if the schism that occured around the 1000 year mark of christianity seperated them from it, and the countless assults to christianity on the eastern side of the world over the last 1000 years could have corrupted or lost some of this deposit.

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Right, the CC does claim to have the whole deposit.
and the EO does claim to have the whole deposit.
No offence but that doesnt make it so.
Obviously one or both is deceived.

but it comes down to accepting the whole faith and not the parts that you agree with and reject the parts that you don't agree with.

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Mary's Immaculate conception is part of this tradition held onto by the church through all ages.

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PROOF FROM TRADITION

In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older "Fathers" are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.

• "Origen", although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of "Christ's" passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also "Christ" died (Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
• In the same manner "St. Basil" writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).
• "St. Chrysostom" accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to "Jesus" at Capharnaum (Matthew 11:46; Chrysostom, Hom. xliv; cf. also "In Matt.", hom. iv).

But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science...

Gosh Tdig, that's sort of lame dont you think.
Some fathers disagreed with the doctrine, so rather
than just admitting it might be erroneous, they say
that it goes to show that theology is progressive.


I appreciate your work and your time, but I was
looking for proof.
I cannot just blindly believe something when it
seems to contradict Scripture.
And I'm sure you're not asking me to.

No matter how corrupt or off base the Men in the church acted they have never been able to change this Faith.

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But that's not the case for some of the men, who
never believed it to begin with.
Besides, we need to hear GOD, He is the one
who reveals things to us, especially things that
the Bible doesnt address.

How can we prove this doctrine through the Bible?
Even if the Apostles themselves had said this sort of
thing, we'd be obliged to study the Scripture and make
sure this thing is so.
As the noble bereans.

blessings
sunlover

Let's keep the thread above water and open here.

Please do not insult, demean, or degrade other posters and please do not insult or call into question the faith of other Christians.

Address the topic not the poster.

Thanks.

mont974x4 said:

People apply deistic properties to her and other "saints"

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That is an absolutely false statement. We worship God alone. The saints are what they are: The "spirits of just men made perfect" as then Bible says

mont974x4 said:

We are to pray to God alone

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Again, prayer is a request, not worship. We worship God alone, but we make "request" of each other. Your absolute refusal to see this point is dumbfounding to me.

Thread cleaned up and reopened.

Let's keep it civil, charitable, and respectful.

Thanks!

Great points, Sonlover. I hope they get addressed.

Hey Terry, chill a little, bro.
Y'all do worship Mary. Can you help it if us ignerint proddestunts don't know the difference between the two forms of worship: hyperdulia & latria?
Besides, "apply deistic properties" wasn't meant as "worship", rather it's about attributing God's characteristic to a human, no matter how special a human he or she happens to be. (Think "Mediatrix")

Here is an interesting story online:
Assumptions About Mary
By T.L. Frazier:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9205fea2.asp

T.L. Frazier is a convert from Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism to the Catholic Church. Some of you may find this article interesting. I did.

karma Chamelon!

DMagoh said:

Just out of curiousity, if Mary "was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin" (Immaculate Conception), why did it take 1,854 years after the birth of Jesus before anyone realized this? How come the Catholic church did not recognize this fact until 1854 AD? It wasnt until Pope Pius IX uttered those words on December 8, 1854, that this doctrine was issued.

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I'm not sure how far you guys have gotten on this issue- but I'm just adding in now so forgive my latness.

Lots of things are not known until much later. We use to believe the sun revolved around the earth, but it was discovered MUCH latter that the earth revolves around the sun. The Trinity always existed, but it was not known until MUCH later. The works of plato have no paper trail until much after his death. We humans are slow sometimes, thats why.

Yeah, but when it WAS discovered, the guy who discovered it was treated like a red-headed step-child by the ecclesiastical establishment for provin' it.
You've just excused religious oppression on the grounds that we're imperfect.