Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

One is in the Scriptures and is ordained by God...the other is an unbiblical false teachings that is based on the twisting of Scripture and redefining words.

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Which Christians have been doing now for over 2000yrs.
And the practice of not praying to them for less then that.

I wonder who is redifining the words of Scripture?

Peace

lionroar0 said:

Which Christians have been doing now for over 2000yrs.
And the practice of not praying to them for less then that.

I wonder who is redifining the words of Scripture?

Peace

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Thank God He used imperfect people to lead others away from such false teachings.

Thank God He used imperfect people to lead others away from such false teachings.

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And yet the intercessions of the Saints are answered.



Peace

Brennin said:

Mary's assistance is not needed.

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That is outrageous! If Mary's assistance is not needed, then why did God choose her to enter the world through? Why didnt He just go "poof" and appear and save us all? Why waste the time growing up, why not just get on with the business of salvation? The arrogance of that statement is mind numbing. God chose her.
God will decide what is needed, not you !!!

terryobrien80 said:

That is outrageous! If Mary's assistance is not needed, then why did God choose her to enter the world through? Why didnt He just go "poof" and appear and save us all? Why waste the time growing up, why not just get on with the business of salvation? The arrogance of that statement is mind numbing. God chose her.
God will decide what is needed, not you !!!

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He had to fullfil prophesy in order to be the Messiah.


What is outragious is the unbiblical worship/veneration of a person, attributing honor and glory to her that belongs to Christ alone.

lionroar0 said:

And yet the intercessions of the Saints are answered.



Peace

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Sure, the prayers of a righteous man avails much.

Which has nothing to do with talking to dead people.

terryobrien80 said:

That is outrageous! If Mary's assistance is not needed, then why did God choose her to enter the world through? Why didnt He just go "poof" and appear and save us all? Why waste the time growing up, why not just get on with the business of salvation? The arrogance of that statement is mind numbing. God chose her.
God will decide what is needed, not you !!!

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Not outrageous, just the truth. Mary's assistance in prayer is not needed, has never been needed, and never will be needed.

mont974x4 said:

He had to fullfil prophesy in order to be the Messiah.


What is outragious is the unbiblical worship/veneration of a person, attributing honor and glory to her that belongs to Christ alone.

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You are absolutely correct, of course, but some people value their doctrinal idols more than the unvarnished truth.

terryobrien80 said:

That is outrageous! If Mary's assistance is not needed, then why did God choose her to enter the world through? Why didnt He just go "poof" and appear and save us all? Why waste the time growing up, why not just get on with the business of salvation? The arrogance of that statement is mind numbing. God chose her.
God will decide what is needed, not you !!!

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Calm down girl!

Jesus was to be born of the seed of Adam which of necessity requires human birth. Mary was a good girl among many. Why she was special is that she was of the lineage of David and living in the same location that all prophecy concernimng His birth would be fulfilled. BTW, that necessitated her marrying a guy named Joseph of the lineage of David as well, because he was from Bethelem.

Ormly said:

Calm down girl!

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Girl?....
.......no, I'm not going to bite on the bait, madam

Although I will say that insulting people gives a good indication of how well the Holy Spirit is working in YOUR walk in Christ

terryobrien80 said:

Girl?....
.......no, I'm not going to bite on the bait, madam

Although I will say that insulting people gives a good indication of how well the Holy Spirit is working in YOUR walk in Christ

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Easy brother, I suspect he just looked at your name and not your gender icon. I seriously doubt he meant it as an insult.

I know I rarely look at the icons....maybe I should start.

lionroar0 said:

Which Christians have been doing now for over 2000yrs.
And the practice of not praying to them for less then that.

I wonder who is redifining the words of Scripture?

Peace

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Christians?? You mean Catholics, don't you?

terryobrien80 said:

Girl?....
.......no, I'm not going to bite on the bait, madam

Although I will say that insulting people gives a good indication of how well the Holy Spirit is working in YOUR walk in Christ

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Your profile pic looks like a girl to me.

How have I insulted you? That has never been any intent of mine and aplogize to you if I have.

Mind you, I don't care a bit for where place your faith.

The Chatholic doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed.

Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

Complement to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, over the centuries, as I posted some things the early chruch Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and the key union with her and the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might."

If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself!

After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false.

Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory.

There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

"There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture. "


Except it is unbiblical to hold people to a doctrine where personal choice should be the rule....plus that ideal leaves you wide open to heressy and apostasy...following every wind of doctrine.

Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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Because if you're going to pull it off you have to build a little anticipation?

mont974x4 said:

Except it is unbiblical to hold people to a doctrine where personal choice should be the rule....plus that ideal leaves you wide open to heressy and apostasy...following every wind of doctrine.

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Where in the bible does it say personal choice should be the rule....

There are two choices people can make the bible talks about....

Choice:
1) Listen and follow the word and Law of God.
2) Reject the word and Law of God...(Sin)

so personal choice is the choice to sin or not to sin... How does this ideal leave you wide open to heresy and apostasy?

By defining Doctrine you are preventing heresy and apostasy.... by rejecting the Doctrine you are then wide open to heresy and apostasy.

The role of Mary in the church is our loving mother who brought our Savior and Lord into the world. Unlike some families when a child rejects his or her parents the parents in return reject the child also...

When a child of God willingly rejects Jesus... God then being just will have to judge that child, when that child dies, for rejecting him.

Mary on the other hand does not judge. She continuosly interceeds for us that we may return and continue to follow Christ and his limitless love. She does not tell God what to do or plead our case to God to make God sympathic to our sin... She instead continues to pray for you and shows her motherly love to you even if you have rejected her son.

As a mortal people our lives are up and down up and down... Some times our lives go soo far down we feel disconnected from the love of Christ. Mary is who helps us repent and accept Christ again and seek his forgivness. She is the mother who will never stop showing her love for her children... even if they reject her as well as her son.

All apparitions of Mary over the last 500 years have preached the same message pray for sinners and pray for the repentence of sins.

sunlover1 said:

So guys,
If we all can remember what we
were talking about a couple pages
ago, how the enemy is trying to hurt YOU
by making YOU get into offence (skandelon)
Trying to catch us in his trap.
He doestn come to make a BIT of
trouble,
he cometh NOT but to
KILL
STEAL
and DESTROY

Onward and upwards,

lets not let him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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Back to this question... as my other posts have pointed to it did not take 1,854 years to discover this doctrine...

This doctrine was believed and carried on over the 1,854 years through tradition.

The Pope defined it because it would bring hope and love amongst the faithful and non faithful, but it was already as good as doctrine before that.

The Immaculate Conception was not discovered in 1854, it was publicly defined in 1854.

As time continues on there will be many more doctrines that will become defined.

Tdigaetano said:

Back to this question... as my other posts have pointed to it did not take 1,854 years to discover this doctrine...

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Thank you.
Sorry, I hadnt seen your other posts.

This doctrine was believed and carried on over the 1,854 years through tradition.

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Does that make it necessarily a correct doctrine?

The Pope defined it because it would bring hope and love amongst the faithful and non faithful, but it was already as good as doctrine before that.

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I understand, but as we look at the facts,
if they dont seem to line up with Scripture,
then what?

Thanks,
sunlover