Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[DMagoh]

Just out of curiousity, if Mary "was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin" (Immaculate Conception), why did it take 1,854 years after the birth of Jesus before anyone realized this? How come the Catholic church did not recognize this fact until 1854 AD? It wasnt until Pope Pius IX uttered those words on December 8, 1854, that this doctrine was issued.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Just out of curiousity, if Mary "was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin" (Immaculate Conception), why did it take 1,854 years after the birth of Jesus before anyone realized this? How come the Catholic church did not recognize this fact until 1854 AD? It wasnt until Pope Pius IX uttered those words on December 8, 1854, that this doctrine was issued.

Actually, it was "realized" 9 months before Jesus was born. When the angel addressed her "Hail, full of grace".

And has been discussed in one way or another, since the Early Church, it just wasn't formal defined and decreed until 1854.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[IamAdopted]

Actually, it was "realized" 9 months before Jesus was born. When the angel addressed her "Hail, full of grace".

And has been discussed in one way or another, since the Early Church, it just wasn't formal defined and decreed until 1854.

Peace be with you...Pam

Can you show me where in scripture the bible says that Mary was full of Grace? I see in my scriptures that she was highly favored.. Not full of grace.

 

[DMagoh]

Actually, it was "realized" 9 months before Jesus was born. When the angel addressed her "Hail, full of grace"...

How does being addressed this way mean you were born without original sin? How come there is nothing in the scripture that actually says it? I mean, you would think if she were the only exception to the rule (besides God himself as Jesus), it would be specifically mentioned.

 

[IamAdopted]

Actually, it was "realized" 9 months before Jesus was born. When the angel addressed her "Hail, full of grace".

And has been discussed in one way or another, since the Early Church, it just wasn't formal defined and decreed until 1854.

Peace be with you...Pam

28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

I do not see full of grace.. Highly favored one blessed among women not above women..

 

[IamAdopted]

I do see stephen full of Grace.. Not Mary though..

 

[HisKid1973]

How does being addressed this way mean you were born without original sin? How come there is nothing in the scripture that actually says it? I mean, you would think if she were the only exception to the rule (besides God himself as Jesus), it would be specifically mentioned.

I always though that too..Something that is that noteworthy would be motioned.. That she was sinless or her parents....They do metion highly favored but others were too..

 

[jeffweeder]

Salvation is Gods work, and he made it clear to her.

LK 1

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

If Mary was sinless, then she would have been part of the ABOVE QUOTE. But only God is without sin.

45 "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by[32][Lit from ] the Lord."

Mary was perplexed at the Angels salutation, because she knew she had sinned in some way. Why else was she ?

 

[PassthePeace1]

Can you show me where in scripture the bible says that Mary was full of Grace? I see in my scriptures that she was highly favored.. Not full of grace.

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.






Douay-Rheims Bible Online, Gospel According to Saint Luke Chapter 1

 

[HisKid1973]

28 And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

 

[PassthePeace1]

How does being addressed this way mean you were born without original sin?

A person can't be full of grace, with the stain of original sin.

How come there is nothing in the scripture that actually says it?

It does say it..."Hail, full of grace. Notice he doesn't use her name Mary, but addresses her as a title...Hail, full of grace."

Plus there is typeology in scripture that support the statement, "Hail, full of grace". However, I am much to tried to go into it tonight.

I mean, you would think if she were the only exception to the rule (besides God himself as Jesus), it would be specifically mentioned.

While it is true she is the only creature, that was concieved without the stain of original sin, she was not the only creature in the Bible,.....without original sin. John the Baptist was born also without original sin, however his was after his conception, while still in his mother's womb. See verses below.

And thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. 15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.


Peace be with you...Pam

 

[jeffweeder]

A person can't be full of grace, with the stain of original sin.

If you had no sin,why would you need grace?

I need grace because i'm a naughty boy.-------------sometimes

Is 64

4 For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

javascript:VClk('Isa 64:4')javascript:VClk('Isa 64:4')javascript:VClk('Isa 64:4')

 

[PassthePeace1]

If you had no sin,why would you need grace?

I am referring to the stain (effects) of original sin, not personal sin....that a person might commit after they are born.

Original sin is the wounded(fallen/corrupt) nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve, who committed the first sin.

For us orginal sin is removed in the Sacrement of Baptism, were God's graces that Christ merited for us with his redemptive work on the Cross...washes away our sins, both orginal sin and personal sin.

For Mary, she was preserved from original sin at the moment of her conception, by a unique singular privelege of grace. However, this doesn't mean that Mary didn't need a Savior, because if she hadn't been priveleged, of being preserved from original sin....she too would have been born with in the state of original sin.

I need grace because i'm a naughty boy.-------------sometimes

We all need that grace, that is why when we are bad and separate ourselves from God, we must repent an be reconciled back to God. However, this is dealing with personal sin, and as I said earlier in regards to the Immaculate Conception, I was referring to original sin.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[repentant]

KJV

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NIV

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Original Greek..

kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen xaire kexaritvmenh o kurios meta sou

The word used in the Greek is keharitomeni. Haris is grace..

But...having grace in no way means born without sin...

Same type of wording is used to describe Stephen in Acts 6:8..

plhrhs xaritos

Filled with Grace...was he IC'd as well..?

 

[lionroar0]

KJV

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NIV

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Original Greek..

kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen xaire kexaritvmenh o kurios meta sou

The word used in the Greek is keharitomeni. Haris is grace..

But...having grace in no way means born without sin...

Same type of wording is used to describe Stephen in Acts 6:8..

plhrhs xaritos

Filled with Grace...was he IC'd as well..?

And then why did the Orthodox defend her Immaculate Conception and why are the Orthodox not united in the belive of the IC?

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

KJV

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NIV

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Original Greek..

kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen xaire kexaritvmenh o kurios meta sou

The word used in the Greek is keharitomeni. Haris is grace..

But...having grace in no way means born without sin...

Same type of wording is used to describe Stephen in Acts 6:8..

plhrhs xaritos

Filled with Grace...was he IC'd as well..?

This scripture being translated from the original greek means Hail favored one.. Not full of grace. This full of grace translation is based on Latin texts..

 

[Uphill Battle]

Douay-Rheims Bible Online, Gospel According to Saint Luke Chapter 1

The Douay-Rheims Bible was created at the time of the reformation for the sole purpose of defending held doctrines.

I don't know about you, but I TRY to steer clear of translations that have an agenda.

 

[PassthePeace1]

KJV

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NIV

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Original Greek..

kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen xaire kexaritvmenh o kurios meta sou

The word used in the Greek is keharitomeni. Haris is grace..

But...having grace in no way means born without sin.

How can a person be full of grace, or highly favored with grace....and also have sin on their soul? She is address with this title, before the Incarnation took place.

Same type of wording is used to describe Stephen in Acts 6:8..

plhrhs xaritos

Filled with Grace...was he IC'd as well..?

No, he wasn't immaculately conceieved, but he was filled with grace, at his baptism.

If haris of keharitoemeni is grace, then even in the translations that render "Higly favored one", would mean she was highly favored with grace, right?

 

[IamAdopted]

How can a person be full of grace, or highly favored with grace....and also have sin on their soul? She is address with this title, before the Incarnation took place.



No, he wasn't immaculately conceieved, but he was filled with grace, at his baptism.

If haris of keharitoemeni is grace, then even in the translations that render "Higly favored one", would mean she was highly favored with grace, right?

Grace is unmerrited Favor.. Not sinlessness

 

[PassthePeace1]

The Douay-Rheims Bible was created at the time of the reformation for the sole purpose of defending held doctrines.

I don't know about you, but I TRY to steer clear of translations that have an agenda.

Translation from the Vulgate

{1:28} Et ingressus Angelus ad eam dixit: Ave gratia plena: Dominus tecum: Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
{1:28} And upon entering, the Angel said to her: “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”

Latin-English Study Bible (with translation notes)