patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
Thank you for providing such beautiful images of our Lady with your learned posts. She is so lovable!
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I will never know a man amounts to saying I know not a man. A non-smoker who says: "I don't smoke" (Present Indicative Active) means that he never smokes and is not smoking now. If he were to ask a fortune teller after receiving a grim forecast: How will I die of lung cancer, since I don't smoke,? he further means that he has no intention of ever smoking. If he intended to start smoking,he wouldn't ask the question How. The thought of eventually consuming tobacco would certainly cross his mind if he intended to start smoking. He could even ask himself whether he might start smoking after all. But presently he affirms that he is a non-smoker. He never smokes and is not smoking now. He does not smoke. Because he doesn't smoke, how shall he die of lung cancer? Similarly, because (epei) Mary doesn't know man, how shall she conceive Jesus? Shall Mary no longer intend not to have marital relations with Joseph? Not at all! She will conceive Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Allow me to make this verse clearer to you. The original Greek text reads: andra ou ginosko, which literally is "man not I know" or in English "I know not man." The Greek verb ginosko (PIA) is in the continuous present which shows a permanent disposition with regard to the verb in question: to not know man. Mary has a permanent disposition to not know man, just as the man who says "I don't smoke" has a permanent disposition not to smoke. The verb "to know" in the Gospel is a Jewish idiom which has to do with sexual relations between a man and a woman. So idiomatically, Mary is actually telling the angel: "I don't have sex with man." Now this Jewish idiom for sexual relations is subject to the same rules of grammar as any other verb is. The verb "to know" may be conjugated in the past tense. We read in Genesis 4:1: 'And Adam knew Eve his wife who conceived and brought forth Cain.' In other words, "Adam had sex with Eve who conceived and brought forth Cain." Eve conceived Cain because she had sex with Adam. But Mary does not have sex with man, so she wonders how she will conceive Jesus. She tells the angel: "I don't have sex with man." She never has sex, and she is not having sex at the present time. Mary is no different from the non-smoker. She has a permanent disposition to not have sex, just as the non-smoker has a permanent disposition not to smoke. It is Mary's permanent disposition and will not to have sex, which explains why she asks the angel how she could possibly ever conceive a child.
The KJV is right in that the verb "to know" is in the Present Indicative Active, but it is wrong with the insertion of the indefinite article "a" before "man", which we don't have in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The inclusion of this grammatical exponent can create a misunderstanding of God's written word. The object in Mary's statement is andra, which means "man", or more precisely the genre of the male sex. What it does not signify is an individual male, who in this case would be Joseph. The KJV mistranslation has led to readings like this one: "I do not have a husband." However, we read in Luke 1:27 that Mary was betrothed (espoused) to Joseph at the appointed time. The couple were already legally married, having observed the first marriage ceremony (Kiddushin). They were in fact husband and wife at the time of the Annunciation, which explains why Joseph was in a position to divorce Mary as soon as he discovered she was pregnant. Andra can mean "husband" (John 4:17), but Mary does not say: "I have no husband," since she has one already.
Neither does Mary say: "I am a virgin," which I've found in a Protestant Bible. Being a virgin (parthenos) does not signify a permanent disposition and intention in and of itself. A woman who has no intention of having sexual relations with any man could still lose her virginity by being raped. But once she has been raped and has lost her virginity, she could still intend not having sex with any man if that were her original intention. A virgin may also intend to have sexual relations with a man, but only once she has been married. As we know, Mary was wed to Joseph, so if she had intended to conceive children with her husband upon consummating their marriage, she would not have asked the angel how she will become pregnant.. She asks her question, not because she is a virgin, but because she does not have sexual relations with the male sex:"I do not know man." "I do not have sex with man." What Mary doesn't say is "I haven't had sex with my husband yet" or either "I don't have sex with my husband." Grammatically and semantically, the statement andra ou ginosko doesn't allow such interpretations. The object noun andra does not refer to individual males. There is another word for individual men, which is anthropos. It refers to the entire human race or an individual male (Matthew 8:9). So the indefinite article does precede anthropos when referring to an individual man.Many Protestants claim that the dogma of the PVM either contradicts the Scriptures (the feeble "brothers of Jesus" supposition) or is unsupported by them (no explicit evidence), but that's only because they have drawn inferences based on mistranslated texts. When reading Luke 1:34, we must strictly keep to the grammar and vocabulary of the text, heed the Hebrew colloquialism in Mary's speech, and observe the whole context of the dialogue between Mary and the angel.
A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring dried up, a fountain sealed.
Songs of Solomon 4, 12
It is in the present tense and indicative mood.Helpfulness is a good thing...
So do you not think that γινωσκω is an ongoing present tense verb of continuous action...
That would seem to be what was written...
Did I miss something?
Arsenios
Another rebuttal of your POV.The vow I understood you meant was the couple's marriage vow. If you mean Mary's vow of chastity to God, He never asked her to reverse it. Meanwhile, the vow to consummate the marriage with the signing of the ketubah is made at the second wedding ceremony (Nisuin) which formally solemnizes the marriage. When the angel appeared to Mary, she was legally married to Joseph, but the ceremony of solemnization was still pending. God would not have appraoched Mary after this point. Finally, I cited Numbers 30 to show how Mary and Joseph could have agreed to a chaste marriage according to Mosaic law. If I've missed the point, then kindly explain how.
Another rebuttal of your POV.
Numbers 30 says if she takes a vow in her youth, then she surely wouldn't be betrothed afterward. .
It is in the present tense and indicative mood.
"The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time."
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
The idea of "ongoing present tense" is the perfect tense.
"The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action."
-ibid-
IOW, if you are right that Mary took a vow, the greek would be perfect tense. She took a vow in the past and its results continue in full force. It is not that tense. It is present tense. She is betrothed, but not yet consummated. She does not know a man currently, in the present. There is no sense she will maintain that state of virginity.
It'll mean more to you if you'll simply read it, rather than assume it's not there.Where does Numbers 30 say that?
Look at all the angel promises, but first step first.I don't know Greek or this kind of grammar, but I'm sure that JustinAngel can answer this. In any case, the question--"how can this be since I do not know man?"-- doesn't make sense unless the Mother of God planned on a celibate marriage. Since the angel didn't give a timeline, she naturally--if she had planned on a normal marriage-- would have assumed that she would conceive Jesus when she and Joseph began living together.
It'll mean more to you if you'll simply read it, rather than assume it's not there.
Look at all the angel promises, but first step first.
Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
It is in the present tense and indicative mood.
IOW, if you are right that Mary took a vow, the greek would be perfect tense. She took a vow in the past and its results continue in full force. It is not that tense. It is present tense. She is betrothed, but not yet consummated. She does not know a man currently, in the present. There is no sense she will maintain that state of virginity.
It (γινωσκω is in the present tense and indicative mood.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm"The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action.
It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.'
When used in the indicative mood,
the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time."
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
The idea of "ongoing present tense" is the perfect tense.
"The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action."
-ibid-
IOW, if you are right that Mary took a vow,
the greek would be perfect tense. She took a vow in the past and its results continue in full force.
It [ginosko] is not that tense. It is present tense.
She is betrothed, but not yet consummated.
She does not know a man currently, in the present.
There is no sense she will maintain that state of virginity.
First of all, the verb in question isn't to take a vow or to be betrothed, but to have sex. Second, the angel doesn't tell Mary that she has conceived (present perfect) or that she will conceive now in the immediate present. Nor does Mary say that she doesn't have sex now. She simply says that she doesn't have sex - period (I don't smoke.). Finally, Mary does not ask the angel when she will conceive, but how? The instant of time has nothing to do with her statement, but the manner of her getting pregnant does in light of her ongoing state of not having sex with man (andra), not an individual man (anthropos) like her husband. She wouldn't ask the angel how she could get pregnant if she intended to consummate her marriage. Because (epei) she doesn't have sex, how will she conceive Jesus? That's what puzzles her. What puzzles me is how you fail to see the obvious.
Justinus Angelus
Another rebuttal of your POV.
Numbers 30 says if she takes a vow in her youth, then she surely wouldn't be betrothed afterward. We know as did Mary what betrothed to a husband meant. Thus we know again she never had a vow of EV.
If you hope to rebute anything, I suggest you do your homework first instead of just presume things.
Vows Taken by a Married Woman
[6] And if she is married to a husband, while under her vows or any thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she has bound herself, [7] and her husband hears of it, and says nothing to her on the day that he hears; then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. [8] But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he expresses disapproval, then he shall make void her vow which was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips, by which she bound herself; and the LORD will forgive her.
Vows to "Afflict Herself"
[13] Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void. [14] But if her husband says nothing to her from day to day, then he establishes all her vows, or all her pledges, that are upon her; he has established them, because he said nothing to her on the day that he heard of them. [15] But if he makes them null and void after he has heard of them, then he shall bear her iniquity."
A woman's vows to "afflict herself," according to Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse. Similar terminology is used in descriptions of the Day of Atonement, when Jews were expected to fast and refrain from sexual intercourse.There are three kinds of vows:
1. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a young, unmarried woman. [The prophetess Anna, who served in the Temple all her life]
2. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a married woman. [Mary, who got married while under her vow]
3. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a widow or divorced woman. [Judith, who became a widow]
In all three cases, the binding nature of the vow is dependant on whether the male party (father or husband), upon hearing of the vow, said nothing and thereby consented to it. In each case, if he heard of the vow and consented to it, the vow is perpetually binding.
Justinus Angelus
You're under the impression she had made a vow while a youngster, per the PoJames. See Numbers 30:3-5 as the situation. IF true, she wouldn't have become betrothed.If you hope to rebute anything, I suggest you do your homework first instead of just presume things.
Vows Taken by a Married Woman
[6] And if she is married to a husband, while under her vows or any thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she has bound herself, [7] and her husband hears of it, and says nothing to her on the day that he hears; then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. [8] But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he expresses disapproval, then he shall make void her vow which was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips, by which she bound herself; and the LORD will forgive her.
Vows to "Afflict Herself"
[13] Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void. [14] But if her husband says nothing to her from day to day, then he establishes all her vows, or all her pledges, that are upon her; he has established them, because he said nothing to her on the day that he heard of them. [15] But if he makes them null and void after he has heard of them, then he shall bear her iniquity."
A woman's vows to "afflict herself," according to Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse. Similar terminology is used in descriptions of the Day of Atonement, when Jews were expected to fast and refrain from sexual intercourse.There are three kinds of vows:
1. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a young, unmarried woman. [The prophetess Anna, who served in the Temple all her life]
2. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a married woman. [Mary, who got married while under her vow]
3. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a widow or divorced woman. [Judith, who became a widow]
In all three cases, the binding nature of the vow is dependant on whether the male party (father or husband), upon hearing of the vow, said nothing and thereby consented to it. In each case, if he heard of the vow and consented to it, the vow is perpetually binding.
Justinus Angelus
Hello. Read it yourself. Mt. 1:19This would then seem to force Her vow of virginity in perpetuity,
because Scripture does not show Joseph exercising anything
but his silent consent...
Justin, ya do good work!
Arsenios
Hello. Read it yourself. Mt. 1:19
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
You folks have reached for more straw and fallen into a pit.
Okay. If what you say is true, that she had taken a vow of EV, then she would not have become betrothed. There's nothing to suggest the myth spun in PoJames.Well, you must remember that it is God's purposing that matters... Not Joseph's... She was utterly committed from the age of three to her lifelong virginity, and when puberty came, she could no longer live in the Temple, and the elderly and Noble Joseph agreed to marry her so she could keep her virginity, and keep her undefiled in his house with his children from his widow... So when she showed up pregnant, he was just trying to do the kindest think he could, until the angel appeared in his dream, and he consented to the celibate marriage with her...
It is amazing to me how it is that Protestants seem to want to carnalize her, and Latins want to deify her...
Only us knuckle-dragging behemothic Orthodox Christians seem to have her properly understood...
And I said that without even a trace of pride!
Arsenios
This would then seem to force Her vow of virginity in perpetuity,
because Scripture does not show Joseph exercising anything
but his silent consent...
Justin, ya do good work!
Arsenios
Yes, Joseph's silence is a statement in itself.
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