Immaculate conception of Mary?

patricius79 · Jan 8, 2016

Standing Up said:
'Cause the doctrine is she was a virgin before, during, and after birth.

Right. St. Irenaeus says that she gave birth before she went into labor, just as Isaiah prophesied.

justinangel · Jan 8, 2016

Standing Up said:
Church fathers are after Paul. So you got nothing.

The Catholic Church didn't come to an end with the death of Paul or the last apostle. It had just started and continued from the apostles and shall continue until Christ returns. The Catholic faith is built upon the 'foundation' of the apostles. So the apostolic ministry cannot come to an end, being the base of the Church, but must continue by succession, as the Holy Spirit guides the Church in all truth.

Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.
Ephesians 2, 20

2 Timothy 4

1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sounda teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

"And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever."
John 14, 16

"I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and show it to you."
John 16, 12-15

Several ECFs refer to Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. This Marian tradition was handed on by Paul, since Luke draws a parallel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant in his Gospel by alluding to verses about the ark in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles. Luke was a travelling companion of Paul for part of his journeys, so the evangelist must have written down much that he had learned from Paul. His Gospel did proceed from sacred Tradition (Luke 1:1-4).

justinangel · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
Keep in mind the Damasine list rejects the PoJames upon which the myth of Mary e-v hangs.

The Infancy Gospel of James (c.140-170 A.D.) wasn't included in the canon of Scripture because it wasn't actually written by the apostle James the Less. It wasn't rejected because the Church ruled it was heretical. The Didache is an orthodox text, but it wasn't included either, because it wasn't written by an apostle or close associate of his. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has always been part of the deposit of faith: Scripture and Tradition. Luke 1:34-35 confirms this traditional Marian belief of the Church since earliest time. The PoJ reflects it.

By the way, both Origen and Clement of Alexandria apparently regarded the PoJ as scripture. It was read during Sunday worship in the churches of Alexandria. The Council of Carthage finally ruled that no text unlisted by Pope Damasus l and ratified by the council Fathers ought to be read during Holy Mass any longer, now that the Canon has been definitively determined by the Catholic Church.

Still, no one still really believes there was a Synod of Rome at that time.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0HKOJt33wLYC&pg=PA158&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

Who told you that, the Joker? It's a historical fact that the Synod of Rome took place under the authority of Pope Damasus l in 382 A.D.

“Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon [i.e. Chronicles] two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus [i.e. Sirach] one book.

Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books.

Likewise the order of the writings of the New and Eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book.

The Epistles of Paul the Apostle in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one.

Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle.”

– Decree of the Council of Rome (AD 382) on the Canon of Scripture during the reign of Pope Damasus I (AD 366-384)

Canon 24. (Greek xxvii.)
That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture
Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.
But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:

Genesis.
Exodus.
Leviticus.
Numbers.
Deuteronomy.
Joshua the Son of Nun.
The Judges.
Ruth.
The Kings, iv. books.
The Chronicles, ij. books.
Job.
The Psalter.
The Five books of Solomon.
The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
Isaiah.
Jeremiah.
Ezechiel.
Daniel.
Tobit.
Judith.
Esther.
Ezra, ij. books.
Macchabees, ij. books.
- The New Testament.
  - The Gospels, iv. books.
  - The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.
  - The Epistles of Paul, xiv.
  - The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.
  - The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.
  - The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.
  - The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.
  - The Revelation of John, j. book.

Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.
Council of Carthage (A.D. 419)

"Most firmly it believes, professes and preaches that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament — that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel — since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.

Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John."
Council of Florence Session 11, 4 February 1442

DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES

The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.
Council of Trent, Session 4, 8 April 1556

The Council of Trent couldn't have added the Deuterocanonical books, as many Protestants erroneously claim, since they already belonged to the Canon since the 4th century. That explains why the so-called Protestant reformers rejected them - These books were already included!

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
Right. St. Irenaeus says that she gave birth before she went into labor, just as Isaiah prophesied.

You're confusing birth and labor. Even if there were no labor pains, it doesn't mean the baby was born from Mary's side as the PoJ implies.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

justinangel said:
The Infancy Gospel of James (c.140-170 A.D.) wasn't included in the canon of Scripture because it wasn't actually written by the apostle James the Less. It wasn't rejected because the Church ruled it was heretical.

PoJ was rejected precisely because it was heretical. It contradicted scripture. PoJ has a midwife helping. Scripture has no midwife.

V. The remaining writings [including PoJ] which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:
http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
You're confusing birth and labor.

How so?

Even if there were no labor pains, it doesn't mean the baby was born from Mary's side as the PoJ implies.

"implies"? I haven't heard anyone claiming that the Christ was born from the Immaculata's side.

What the Word of God teaches is that Mary is Ever-Virgin and Immaculate.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

justinangel said:
The Catholic Church didn't

Again, you got nothing about traditions extant in Paul's time.

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
PoJ was rejected precisely because it was heretical. It contradicted scripture. PoJ has a midwife helping. Scripture has no midwife.

Right: there was no midwife, and there was no incapacity or labor pains on the part of the Mother of God. Which only supports the Word of God about a miraculous birth.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
How so?

Because you keep bringing it up like it is important. It's not. Christ was born through the birth canal. Virginity over. With or without labor pains has zip to do with it. Labor pains or not has zip to do with your dogma.

"implies"? I haven't heard anyone claiming that the Christ was born from the Immaculata's side.

That's because you haven't looked beyond your camp. The idea was still extant in John of Damascus time.

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
Again, you got nothing about traditions extant in Paul's time.

Please show that. Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter?

Previously, I believe you seemingly implied that we should not accept anything written by Paul after 2 Thessalonians.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
Right: there was no midwife, and there was no incapacity or labor pains on the part of the Mother of God. Which only supports the Word of God about a miraculous birth.

No midwife says scripture. With midwife says PoJ. Take your pick. Scripture or Tradition.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
Please show that. Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter?

Previously, I believe you seemingly implied that we should not accept anything written by Paul after 2 Thessalonians.

Paul said abide the traditions given in his time. What are they?

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
Virginity over.

Where does the Bible say that?

With or without labor pains has zip to do with it. Labor pains or not has zip to do with your dogma.

If the birth of Christ was not miraculous, then how could there not be labor pains?

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
Paul said abide the traditions given in his time.

Yes, and he said to do so whether they were given orally or by letter. Do you agree with that?

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
No midwife says scripture. With midwife says PoJ. Take your pick. Scripture or Tradition.

The Church doesn't teach that everything in the PoJ is Tradition.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
The Church doesn't teach that everything in the PoJ is Tradition.

RC rejected PoJ as heretical. That it and its members teach/believe anything therefrom is heresy.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
Yes, and he said to do so whether they were given orally or by letter. Do you agree with that?

We've been over this. You got nothing from Paul's time to follow that you know of. The one thing you do know is to observe a floating "easter". But you can't. Free yourself to follow what you teach.

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
We've been over this. You got nothing from Paul's time to follow that you know of. .

Why didn't you answer my question? Do you or do you not agree with Paul that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter? The traditions that Paul refers to are the oral and written Traditions of the Catholic Church, which holds that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. That's why Irenaeus sees her as the New Eve, and says she never went into labor.

patricius79 · Jan 9, 2016

Standing Up said:
RC rejected PoJ as heretical. That it and its members teach/believe anything therefrom is heresy.

Why? The doctrine of the Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God doesn't depend on the PoJ.

Standing Up · Jan 9, 2016

patricius79 said:
Why didn't you answer my question? Do you or do you not agree with Paul that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter? The traditions that Paul refers to are the oral and written Traditions of the Catholic Church, which holds that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. That's why Irenaeus sees her as the New Eve, and says she never went into labor.

We've been over this with scripture. I agree Paul says abide what was taught in Paul's time. RC, however, doesn't do this with its easter. It's the height of hypocrisy to say do it and then RC doesn't do it and instead makes things up from men's traditions over the centuries.

RC has nothing. No oral tradition it follows from Paul's time that Paul says to hold fast to.

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