Imagery in The Passion

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

CIF said:
If your righreousness (obedience to Divine commandments ) does not exceed that of the pharises you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven.

That's because even the pharisees came short of the glory of God (Romans 3.23). There is not that seeks God, no not one (Ps 14.1-3; 53.1-3). No one is justified by the Law (Romans 3.19-20).

Romans 3
Or (47) is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed (48) God (49) who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (50) is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? (51) May it never be! On the contrary, we (52) establish the Law.

Hebrews 7
11 (13) Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it (14) the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise (15) according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion

Romans 14
5 (9) One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be (10) fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he (11) gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us (12) lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore (13) whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end (14) Christ died and lived again, that He might be (15) Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you (16) regard your brother with contempt? For (17) we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,
"(18) AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, (19) EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then (20) each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not (21) judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--(22) not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that (23) nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who (24) thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer (25) walking according to love. (26) Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore (27) do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God (28) is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and (29) peace and (30) joy in the Holy Spirit.

The Jesus of the chruch is much different than the Yeshua of scriptures

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13.8)

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[size=+0]Constantine said[/size]

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My local body of believers does not follow Constatines teachings,

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[size=+0]The church pretty much robs Him of His Jewishness[/size]

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There is a difference between The Church and a church.

Revelation 1:20
"As for the [Rom 11:25] mystery of the [Rev 1:16; 2:1; 3:1] seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the [Ex 25:37; 37:23; Zech 4:2; Rev 1:12; 2:1] seven golden lampstands: the [Rev 1:16; 2:1; 3:1] seven stars are the angels of [Rev 1:4, 11] the seven churches, and the seven [Matt 5:14f] lampstands are the seven churches.

Ephesians 5:27
that He might [2 Cor 4:14; 11:2; Col 1:22] present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be [Eph 1:4] holy and blameless.

Charlesinflorida · Feb 29, 2004

Theseed,

Do you believe then that he Lord winks at and approves the Paganism in the church and the teachings that are contrary to His word?

CIF

ShirChadash · Feb 29, 2004

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." The Gospel which the Church preaches, the Gospel of God's grace to individuals, expressed so perfectly in the first eight chapters of Roman's and sometimes epitomized in four or five "spiritual laws," is the truth, and it is nothing but the truth. But it is not the whole truth. The whole truth requires restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel.

...unless the Church does everthing in her power to restore that Jewishness, she lacks a key component of the Gospel. In consequence she cannot fulfil the Great Commission properly....

When the Church proclaims the Gospel without its Jewishness restored, she is at best failing to proclaim "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27). At worst she may be communicating what Sha'ul [Paul] called "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:6-9). Moreover, not only Jews suffer from this off-target preaching -- Gentiles suffer too...." David H. Stern, Restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel; a Message for Christians.

I believe that term "Church" above, refers to gentilized christianity.

Most, if not nearly all and every, christian church(es) and denomination(s), heirarchies and members alike, understand Jesus and the Word of G-d in a gentilized (hellenized, romanized, western world-view and culture-ized) manner, and therefore are somewhat hobbled in their ability to deeply grasp and understand many things that are tied to understanding the Jewish Messiah and the Jewish/ Hebrew culture. Such is the legacy of the "Church" to all of its offshoot churches and denominations (however supposedly far-removed) who do not teach the Word and Yeshua from the Jewish perspective and the Hebrew world-view and mindset, seeking to understand the Messiah and His Words and the entire Bible from the perspective of the Hebrew culture in which they were steeped, and were part and parcel.

I do not say this as an insult, but as one who has been there, done that. Just my .36

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Zemirah said:
...unless the Church does everthing in her power to restore that Jewishness, she lacks a key component of the Gospel. In consequence she cannot fulfil the Great Commission properly....

The Gospel is the Good News, that Jesus is the resurrection and the life, He died for our sins as a propitation to satisfy God's wrath and after 3 days he rose again, so just has he lived and died and lives forever more, so too shall we live for evermore. And we nolonger live but Christ lives in us. I see nothing that is inherently Jewish or Gentilish about that. We are saved by this grace and mery and nothing more.

Most, if not nearly all and every, christian church(es) and denomination(s), heirarchies and members alike, understand Jesus and the Word of G-d in a gentilized (hellenized, romanized, western world-view and culture-ized) manner, and therefore are somewhat hobbled in their ability to deeply grasp and understand many things that are tied to understanding the Jewish Messiah and the Jewish/ Hebrew culture. Such is the legacy of the "Church" to all of its offshoot churches and denominations (however supposedly far-removed) who do not teach the Word and Yeshua from the Jewish perspective and the Hebrew world-view and mindset, seeking to understand the Messiah and His Words and the entire Bible from the perspective of the Hebrew culture in which they were steeped, and were part and parcel.

Many times I have been in bible studies and have studied the bible as it is rooted in Jewish, Roman, and Greek culture. Paul does not assert that we must be Jewish to be saved, but that we are saved

Romans 8:4
in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

I believe that term "Church" above, refers to gentilized christianity.

Not the kind that i practice

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Charlesinflorida said:
Theseed,

Do you believe then that he Lord winks at and approves the Paganism in the church and the teachings that are contrary to His word?

CIF

I have observed no teachings in my local church that are contrary to his word. And I my self, like the Bereans compare everthing to the Word of God, the Scriptures.

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 9 In context: 1 Corinthians 9:19-21)

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 9 In context: 1 Corinthians 9:20-22)

Charlesinflorida · Feb 29, 2004

So then Yeshua died to cleanse us from sin, so that we can have access to heaven and return to our sinful ways in this life, continuing in what we were doing before we were saved? Why didn't God just forgive us all and allow us to remain Pagans?

I think you miss the point of grace. Grace is not license to live how ever we want to. Grace covers our sins when we try but fall short.

The church is most efficient at taking the words of Paul or even Yeshua out of context and twisting them to fit their own doctrine. This is the very thing that Paul warned against. The thing that Peter also warned against. Your comments theseed, your out of context scriptures with no explanation is typical of this misuse of scripture.

If you want to address individual passages, one at a time, rather that shot-gunning a bunch of unrelated stuff onto the forum, it woud be helpful.

CIF

Charlesinflorida · Feb 29, 2004

theseed said:
I have observed no teachings in my local church that are contrary to his word. And I my self, like the Bereans compare everthing to the Word of God, the Scriptures.

Do you in this church keep the feasts of the Lord, or the feasts of Roman Pagans?

Do you remember the Lords Sabbath or the venerable day of the Sun god Mithra?

Do you eat that which is clean only, or do you eat what the Lord calls unclean?

You see the traditions of the church go back a long way and they become something that a person believes that if they fail to follow them, they will loose their salvation, much like taking a legalistic approach to Gods Law. These traditions go back a long way, but they do not go all the way back to the Lord, or the disciples or the first church for almost 300 years. Most of that church stuff begins after that. When you read the words of the men who are considered "Church fathers" all sorts of alarms should be going off in people, but it doesn't happen. Because the traditions of men do not yeild easily even in the face of the strongest truth.

CIF

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

CIF said:
So then Yeshua died to cleanse us from sin, so that we can have access to heaven and return to our sinful ways in this life, continuing in what we were doing before we were saved? Why didn't God just forgive us all and allow us to remain Pagans?

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Are you saying that all Pagan practices were sin?

I think you miss the point of grace. Grace is not license to live how ever we want to. Grace covers our sins when we try but fall short.

Yes, I know that (Ephesians 2.8-10).

The church is most efficient at taking the words of Paul or even Yeshua out of context and twisting them to fit their own doctrine. This is the very thing that Paul warned against. The thing that Peter also warned against. Your comments theseed, your out of context scriptures with no explanation is typical of this misuse of scripture.[/QUOTE]

It's you that are doing the broad brush stroking, i have read the entire bible, and I know that MY JESUS IS THE REAL JESUS, YESHUA THE MOSHIAK. I can only speak for myself, I can't speak for you and you can't say the same about others. If any man should boast, let him bost in that he knows God. We are saved without the law and apart from the law, the law and the commandments don't bring salvation. We are bound by the Law of Christ, the Law that is written in our hearts, and works in us to sanctify us and to present us without blemish.

You have no right to say that I don't know what I am talking about, I study scriptures day in and day out and I know that Jesus Christ does not require us to keep all 613 commandments. I have read the NT several times over, and I know that even those who keep the Law still sin and are deserving of Hell and Death. Paul writes in his Epistles that we don't have to be Jewish to be saved, he says the we are saved by grace and God remakes us into His Image, we become more like Christ. Read verse 17 below. I know that God is please with me, even though I'm not Jewish.

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

ShirChadash · Feb 29, 2004

theseed said:
I see nothing that is inherently Jewish or Gentilish about that.

And that ^ my friend, is exactly that to which I am referring. May the Ruach be with you as you study, Brother.

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Zemirah said:
And that ^ my friend, is exactly that to which I am referring. May the Ruach be with you as you study, Brother.

What do you mean? What am I doing wrong

ShirChadash · Feb 29, 2004

theseed said:
Read verse 17 below. I know that God is please with me, even though I'm not Jewish.

I just wanted to encourage you, TheSeed... I am sure no one here intends to insinuate that G-d is not pleased with you or doesn't accept you because you aren't Jewish (I think most of us are not, either BTW). My point has been that gentilized churches BY and LArge (though I am happy if this does not refer to you and your church) understand the Scriptures from a non-Jewish point of view... and I would dare say that it does seem to me that you do too if you read the scriptures day in and day out and yet see nothing "Jewish" about it. Please consider reading some works that might give you a bit more insight into the position that there is indeed something "Jewish" about the Jewish Messiah and His very Jewish message, the very Jewish Good News given to us from the G-d Who established Israel, Judah... and sent His Son as a Jew Who taught and revealed Truth in the context of Judaism and the Hebrew culture.

I personally would never venture to say you do not understand the Word, at least I would try never to... however I would say you do not understand it fully (and none of us do, as the Word is active and living and G-d opens it anew to us, at new levels and in new ways each time we read, no?) I would also say you understand it from the position of one who has been taught in certain ways, who believes certain things in certain ways and from a certain background (not all of which standpoints can possibly be perfectly fully formed) and from the place where you find your own self and with the limitations you have -- AS we all DO when we learn and live anything -- we ALL have limitations, brother.

There are many, many teachings and texts in the Word that we non-Jews scratch our heads over and go... "HUH?!" specifically because we do not yet know and understand them from the Hebrew culture and from the Jewish world-view (in which context they were written and are also best understood). The Greek world-view, which is what Western thought and life is based largely upon, is phenomenally different from the Hebraic world view and manner of teaching, thought and communication.

I offer for your perusal some light reading (not!):
http://www.yashanet.com/library/under1.htm
http://www.familybible.org/FAQ/Torah.htm

Many blessings,
~z~

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Pray4Isrel said:
Nothing. You must allow the ruach HaKodesh lead you and prod you softly in the right direction.

No one here is perfect.

Continue to have a teachable spirit and allow those that teach you to teach in grace and peace. If these qualities are missing, then it is not truth that they are speaking.

1Cr 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.1Cr 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.1Cr 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,1Cr 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,1Cr 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Thank you Pray4Isrel,

ShirChadash · Feb 29, 2004

theseed said:
What do you mean? What am I doing wrong

No, no. Oh, Dear Brother... ack... I didn't say that well enough. What I mean is that, specifically, most of us who are non-Jews siply have never been taught anything about the Jewishness of the Gospels themselves, nor how to understand them from ANY mind-set other than our own gentilized mindset. I'm so sorry I didn't say that better -- I wasn't meaning YOU are doing anything wrong, or are wrong yourself... do you understand what I meant? Sheesh... I don't mean to be putting my foot in my mouth... maybe I'll just hush and chew a while...

(Zem looks for Henaynei's foot-in-mouth emote...) I surely didn't mean to hurt you, Seed.

~z~

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Z said:
and I would dare say that it does seem to me that you do too if you read the scriptures day in and day out and yet see nothing "Jewish" about it.

I said the Gospel is not inherently Jewish or Genitle, The Gospel is for all people, God does not show favoritism. "He is no respector of persons"

Through Jesus Christ, "what was once unclean has been made clean", and that is refering to the Non-Jews.

I personally would never venture to say you do not understand the Word, at least I would try never to... however I would say you do not understand it fully (and none of us do, as the Word is active and living and G-d opens it anew to us, at new levels and in new ways each time we read, no?) I would also say you understand it from the position of one who has been taught in certain ways, who believes certain things in certain ways and from a certain background (not all of which standpoints can possibly be perfectly fully formed) and from the place where you find your own self and with the limitations you have -- AS we all DO when we learn and live anything -- we ALL have limitations, brother.

'

None of us understand God's word fully, for his thoughts and ways are vastly higher than ours.
Zemirah, thanks for the encouragement.

The Greek world-view, which is what Western thought and life is based largely upon, is phenomenally different from the Hebraic world view and manner of teaching, thought and communication.

But even Paul used Greek cutlure to teach and preach Jesus Christ, he quoted Epidimes' poetry in Acts 17 to tell the Greeks about Jesus, in Athens-- the center of Greek culture. When Jesus died on the tree, he said "Paid in Full" and in Greek, that meant that a business transcation was complete, therefore "paid in full." If being Jewish means being like God, then none of us come even close, because none of us is close to being like God.

Thanks for the links, I'm always up for learing bible. I'm especially intriged with Johnanine literature, and the writers take the time to go in depth just about Jewish practices and culture. My NT professor thinks that it is written in eliptical rather than liner time order, because Easter people sometimes see things as repeating. But he is the only one, I've heard that from.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[8]
I don't think Jews have to give their Jewish culture and way of life to be come to enter into the ligth, nor do I think Gentiles must be Kosher to enter into the ligtht either. I think that the Kingdom of God is so much more (Romans 14.17)

Henaynei · Feb 29, 2004

Zemirah said:
No, no. Oh, Dear Brother... ack... I didn't say that well enough. What I mean is that, specifically, most of us who are non-Jews siply have never been taught anything about the Jewishness of the Gospels themselves, nor how to understand them from ANY mind-set other than our own gentilized mindset. I'm so sorry I didn't say that better -- I wasn't meaning YOU are doing anything wrong, or are wrong yourself... do you understand what I meant? Sheesh... I don't mean to be putting my foot in my mouth... maybe I'll just hush and chew a while...

(Zem looks for Henaynei's foot-in-mouth emote...) I surely didn't mean to hurt you, Seed.

~z~

I invite you to share with me

/me pulls this out of here personal "I sure need this often enough" file......

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

All Jews should test the truth of the NT Gospel according to the OT and the claims that the Jewish writers made, and not according to church members and church organizations. Because God will test every man's work (1 Corinthians 3). Our brothers and sisters in Christ will fell us, but God remains faithful.

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

One last comment about the Torah, I believe that it is no longer just words written on pages, but that the Torah (Law?) is written on our hearts, and that it is taken to a higher level than it ever was. Sin is still sin, but some things that were unclean, God has made clean, and this is where God used the Law to show that he would make things new. In Rev., Jesus says, "Behold, I make all things new." Some Christians consider one day more important than the other, some eat certain foods and others do not. But God is the God of the them both, and in contrast His Kingdom is about rightousness and peace in the Holy Spirit. Sexual Immorality is still sexual imorality, it's still sin, but on other things such as eating non-kosher, foods, I don't believe that God demands it of me. Obviously, all 613 Mitzvahs can not be kept, nor should they, Christ is The Last Sacrifice.

That's my view, I'm seeking no argument here. I agree that there have been bad systemic doctrine in the Early chruches, and it's sad that many Jews reject Christ based on the actions of Gentile Christians. But God will perfect His Bride, The Church. Let us pray that MJ's and other Christians can be more unified through systemic changes, all for th Glory of God and Jesus Christ to be made known among all peoples.

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

Let's get this thread back on topic. Does anyone have any comments about the imagery of the film?

I hear that the crow is supposed to be in contrast with a dove, meaning that God did not have favor of the malfactor that blasphemed Yeshua.

theseed · Feb 29, 2004

I saw it, and it was awesome, they whole scene was great! I got too see Jesus vindicated, even before The Ressurection.

Imagery in The Passion

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A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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