Thank you very much for you answers RevCowboy, very interesting to read.
Would it be fair to say that it makes no difference whether your belief is a trick of the mind orchestrated from incredibly clever text (i.e the bible) or if god is actually real, as either way it makes no odds as long as you are getting the fulfillment either man or god meant for you to get from christianity?
The answer to that question is yes and no. I would terribly disappointed if it was all clever trick, but I wouldn't regret anything my life.
Now, this being said I am extremely confident that the Bible isn't a trick (even as some as intelligent as Nicolo Machiavelli have suggested). I have done a lot if study and plan on continuing a lot of study.
In my experience, many Christians have not dealt with the existential and epistemological questions of life, let alone when they apply to Christianity. And the reality is if, everyone were to do so the world would grind to halt while we all gazed at our navels. At the same time I have philosophical (and theological mind).
It is my opinion that Christian group that gets the most media attention right now, does not appreciate the kind of study that mainline protestants (ie Lutherans, Anglicans) and Roman Catholics require of their clergy. But I see it as my responsibility to have studied, as much as I can, Ancient Greek philosophy, history, languages, modern philosophy, political science, political theory, literature, world religions, psychology etc... A Good Liberal Arts education. This means that I have learned Greek, the language that the New Testament was written in. We are also trained historical criticism, literary criticism, post-moder criticism, rhetorical criticism etc... The same analytical (they are not really about criticizing but analyzing) methods that a historian, or an English major or philosopher would use in their discipline. If the Bible is a clever trick, it has fooled some amazing scholars who are trained to find the trick. But even beyond that, if they Bible were a clever trick, it does a bad job at tricking. The fact that it doesn't always agree with itself, that the different authors of the different books sometimes didn't even seems to know each other existed yet told the same story. All signs point to Bible being a book written by people who were inspired by their experience of God to tell others of this experience.
The reality of biblical scholarship among theologians is that they have to be the biggest skeptics. I would say that I read the bible at times with more skepticism than even an atheist. The difference being that an Atheist simply discounts the whole thing, while I keep reading and keep studying and I am continually amazed and re-affirmed by the Truth that I find.
A similar comparison could be that i believe myself to be real, but the fact that i could quite easily be part of a simulated computer programme ( hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality (replace the xx with tt) really doesnt make a jot of difference to me, as it is what i believe in my head that counts.
Renee Decartes dilemma is what this simulated reality thing is based on. Its the essential epistemological question. How can I know anything? Decartes said that even he was actually a brain in vat being controlled by a demon that is making you think the the reality your living is real, the one thing that the demon can't fool into thinking is the very fact that you think.
Je penese, donc' Je suis. - I think therefore, I am. The demon cannot make you think that you are not thinking, because thinking that is still thinking.
The problem with beginning everything with this epistemological question is that it doesn't get you much beyond "I think therefore, I am". And spend some time in a Philosophy department at a university and they haven't gotten much past that.
Theologians begin with an ontological questions. Intead of "what do I know?" we ask, "where did I come from?" I find that, while the theological and philosophical are similar in methodology, the theological questions leads to a life of much more hope and freedom.
Interesting you should say Jesus finds you, i'll wait in anticipation then
I would say that Jesus is already in the process of finding you. You are here asking questions, you are going to read the bible. I said that you will know when it happens -- well I should also mentioned that Jesus has a habit of sneaking up on you. You will know that happened when perhaps some time from now you are sitting in a church or a bible study all of a sudden thinking, "How did I get here?"
Also,can anyone actually describe what they get out of religion? It would be interesting to hear.
Freedom through grace and love. Purpose for life. Community that supports and upholds me. A place to make the important transitional phases of life: birth, coming of age, marriage, parenthood, death. A spiritual practice of prayer, study, music. An experience of God, a place to hear how God speaks and acts in the world. A Tradition that is shared by millions throughout the world and centuries. A perhaps most important an identity that is given to us by God, as beloved child of the creator.
