I'm glad there are forums like this.

[GaryWonder]

Hellos, everyone.

I've been looking for a place to discuss Jesus and God and Christian theology. A little background: when I was growing up, my family had no real religious practices or affiliations, but I started attending church youth groups with my friends and got the opportunity to hear Francis Chan speak. He's awesome. Anyway, I went on in life, feeling in my heart that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

But I was caught up in my own life. I went to Iraq in 2005 and saw some horrific things. I returned knowing there were many times I came incredibly close to being killed, but wasn't. In May of 2009, I was ejected from a vehicle and broke my back and skull. The same part of the skull that Dale Earnhardt fractured in his fatal accident. The majority of people who suffer basilar skull fractures die. I spent two weeks in an induced coma, with my family at my bedside. President Obama visited me when he made his rounds and there was more support than I feel I deserved. I was in the care of some of the best neurosurgeons in the world, who were experts at dealing with traumatic brain injuries. One evening, they told my family they had done everything they could do to stop my brain from bleeding. They weren't sure if I'd make it until the morning. For some reason, I did. I've been told it's a miracle I survived, not to mention I'm able to speak, read and write. The things that I took for granted before I was injured.

I have been blessed with a beautiful and selfless wife and a wonderful baby girl. I can't really understand why a selfish and defiant guy like me has them, as well as my survival of the injury. In my defense, I can at least say I take no credit for my survival and recovery. God wants me here, or else I would have died three years ago.

When I consider the prospect of being condemned to an eternity in Hell, it is the scariest thing I can imagine. I just have this fear of going there still and I at least know there's no other way to avoid it, other than salvation through Jesus. I just have so many questions and doubts about certain things. I wish I were able to just never think of them, but I can't. I do believe God has made my constitution, and He doesn't want blind acceptance. Or He would have just made us all robots. I just have trouble finding and trusting my faith.

In summary, I don't feel very valuable or worthy of this life and the things I have in it. But I have a strong desire and need to know I will not spend an eternity apart from God. Whether you believe in everlasting punishment or annihilation, the separation from God is what scares me the most.


I look forward to reading and learning as much as I can here. I think I'll keep my distance from some of the doctrinal and theological debates that are a little over my head at this point. I just want to see Jesus and hear him welcome me to heaven. It sounds selfish, which it is, and I'm ok with that.


Joel

 

[Bible2]

GaryWonder said in post #1:

I just have so many questions and doubts about certain things.

What things? Hopefully, the people in this forum can answer your questions and allay your doubts by pointing to what the scriptures show.

I just have trouble finding and trusting my faith.

If we ever feel our faith is weakening into unbelief, we can pray to Jesus to help us (Mk. 9:24). If we want more faith to come into our hearts, we can read the Bible, or listen to someone reading the Bible out loud (Rom. 10:17), whether in person or on a CD. And we can pray to Jesus to increase our faith (Lk. 17:5).

If we want to keep our hearts from being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, we can fellowship with other Christians every day, at least in some fashion (Mt. 18:20), such as on this forum, being exhorted by them and exhorting them in turn (Heb. 3:13). One way we can lose our faith is by having unrepentant sin in our lives which sears our conscience like with a hot iron, to where we begin to reject the faith, and begin to start listening to and embracing the lies of demons instead (1 Tim. 4:1-2). In a desire to continue in lusts without repentance, we can reach the point where we become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any man-made teachings which will support us in our lusts (2 Tim. 4:3-4).

Ultimately, the only rock-solid base for our faith is doing God's will (Mt. 7:24-25, Jn. 7:17, Jas. 1:22). For if we as believers remain in disobedience to God without repentance, our faith will, as it were, come to have a foundation of sand, so that our faith will collapse when trouble comes (Mt. 7:26-27, 13:21, Lk. 8:13), such as during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:9-13). It's our obedience to Jesus' commands that causes him to continue to manifest himself to us (Jn. 14:21,23, 12:26).

I don't feel very valuable or worthy of this life and the things I have in it.

We should always feel that way (Lk. 18:9-14), even when we're obeying Jesus (Lk. 17:10).

 

[GaryWonder]

Thanks! Well, the inerrancy and accuracy of the Bible is something I have issues with. I've read that the new testament is incredibly accurate. But with the old and new testaments, how can we be sure it's says today, what it said the day it was written, translation taken into account?

Also, for people that live in parts of the world that have never heard of Jesus, are they condemned? And a thousand years ago, when there was no Internet or airplane. I'm trying to square with that.


I do have this desire to surround myself with Christians. I want to learn more. I've never wanted it like this before. It's exciting and almost overwhelming.

 

[Peripatetic]

Welcome, and thank you for your service to the USA! Feel free to ask your questions here or in other sub-forums (this one doesn't get as much traffic). I will warn you that some people on this forum don't treat each other the way Christians should, but you've been through so much that I'm sure a few arguments won't scare you away.

For what it's worth, I too wonder about people in other places and times. The complete answer is probably not available to us, but we can rest assured that it is fair and just.

 

[GaryWonder]

Welcome, and thank you for your service to the USA! Feel free to ask your questions here or in other sub-forums (this one doesn't get as much traffic). I will warn you that some people on this forum don't treat each other the way Christians should, but you've been through so much that I'm sure a few arguments won't scare you away.

For what it's worth, I too wonder about people in other places and times. The complete answer is probably not available to us, but we can rest assured that it is fair and just.

It's been a great honor to serve this country. I'll do a lot of perusing and jump in every now and again with questions.

 

[Bible2]

GaryWonder said in post #3:

But with the old and new testaments, how can we be sure it's says today, what it said the day it was written, translation taken into account?

Ancient Biblical manuscripts in the original languages (Hebrew for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament) still exist today, and it's never been proven that they differ in doctrine from the original manuscripts. At the same time, it's never been proven that they don't, just as it's never been proven that even the original manuscripts were God's Word. But Biblical Christians nonetheless believe the ancient Biblical manuscripts we have match the originals in doctrine, and that this doctrine is God's Word (2 Tim. 3:15-4:4, Jn. 8:31), because Biblical Christians have been granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b) and some measure of God's own Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11-16). And so they're able to spiritually recognize if something is said by God (Jn. 10:4,27, 1 Cor. 14:37) or only by some "stranger" (Jn. 10:5).

And Biblical Christians know the Bible is God's Word not only because of the spiritual evidence of faith (Heb. 11:1), but also because Jesus himself confirms that the entire Old Testament is true (Mt. 5:17-18, Lk. 24:44-48). And the entire New Testament was written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Pet. 1:16, 1 Jn. 1:1-4, 1 Cor. 9:1, Jn. 19:35, 21:24, 1 Pet. 5:1, Lk. 24:48, Rev. 1:17-19) or their immediate followers (Lk. 1:1-2, Heb. 2:3). And Jesus' New Testament death for our sins and resurrection from the dead (1 Cor. 15:3-4) fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (Acts 26:22-23, Isa. 53, Ps. 16:10, Acts 2:31). Also, no doctrine in the Bible has ever been proven false, so there's no reason for any Christian to reject any doctrine taught by the Bible.

It's the Bible which is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ (2 Tim. 3:15, 1 Pet. 1:23-25, Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, Jas. 1:18). All the Bible's teachings were given by the inspiration of God, so they're all true and God's Word (2 Tim. 3:16-4:4). Jesus says: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (Jn. 8:31). Christians must be willing to die before they would deny any part of his Word (Mk. 8:35-38). One of the prime aims of the devil is to get people to reject all or parts of God's Word and start believing something else which sounds better to them as humans (Gen. 3:1-6, Mt. 16:21-23, 1 Tim. 4:1, 2 Tim. 4:3-4), but which can't save them, so that they will end up in eternal punishment with the devil and his fallen angels (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11).

Also, for people that live in parts of the world that have never heard of Jesus, are they condemned?

Yes, for what's essential for initial salvation is belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (Jn. 20:31, 3:36, 1 Jn. 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Lk. 24:46-47, Mt. 20:19, 26:28). And what's essential for ultimate salvation is continued belief unto the end (Heb. 3:6,12,14, Col. 1:23), continued performance of good works of faith unto the end (Rom. 2:6-8, 1 Thes. 1:3), repentance from any sin that might be committed unto the end (Heb. 10:26-29), water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Mk. 16:16, Rom. 6:3-11), partaking of Jesus' flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (Jn. 6:53, 1 Cor. 11:23-30), forgiving everyone for everything (Mt. 6:14-15), reconciling as much as possible with everyone whom we've ever wronged and who could still be holding a grudge against us (Mt. 5:23-26, Rom. 12:18), helping Christians in need (Mt. 25:34-46), providing for our families (1 Tim. 5:8), not blaspheming the Spirit (Mk. 3:29), not removing words from the book of Revelation (Rev. 22:19), not worshipping the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receiving his mark (Rev. 14:9-12), continuing in God's goodness unto the end (Rom. 11:22), and overcoming unto the end (Rev. 3:5, 2:26).

If people die without ever getting initially saved, it mean they weren't elect. The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11, 2 Thes. 2:13), before they were born (Rom. 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Rom. 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8, 1 Pet. 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Rom. 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Jn. 20:31, 1 Jn. 5:13) through their own will (Rom. 9:16, Jn. 1:13, 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Cor. 2:14, 1:18) because only initially saved people, who've received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Cor. 2:11-16). The nonelect can't possibly ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (Jn. 8:42-47, 10:26, Mt. 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b, Heb. 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:25-26).

Someone may then ask: "Why bother preaching if there's divine election?" Because God gives the elect his miraculous gift of faith through their hearing the preaching of his Word (Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b), and God has made it so that saved people are involved in the preaching of his Word (Rom. 10:14-15). They're commanded to preach the gospel to every unsaved person (Mk. 16:15-16), for saved people don't know, and must never assume, which unsaved people are elect (Acts 13:48b) and which unsaved people are nonelect (Jn. 8:43-47). No one should ever be assumed to be nonelect until he or she dies without ever believing in Jesus. Someone may then ask: "Does the elect getting saved by hearing the gospel make their salvation dependent on what men do?" No, for God isn't limited to the obedience of saved humans to preach the gospel to the world (Mk. 16:15), for he can employ his angels to reach everyone with the gospel (Rev. 14:6), and he himself can appear to people to save them directly (Acts 26:13-20).

 

[GaryWonder]

Wow. Thanks for taking the time it took to write all that. So the unelect will spend an eternity in hell. That's how I understand it. Personally, there's a little dissonance with that. But from what I've learned recently, by looking further, is that we can't use our own ideas of justice and righteousness in judging what God does. Having read about hell, there's no
place worse that's ever existed, so it's troubling that people will go there and there's nothing I can do about it. I imagine I've got to let go of that and trust God's will. He's more just than I'll ever.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks! Well, the inerrancy and accuracy of the Bible is something I have issues with. I've read that the new testament is incredibly accurate. But with the old and new testaments, how can we be sure it's says today, what it said the day it was written, translation taken into account?

Particularly with the New Testament, we have thousands of very ancient manuscripts, from different parts of the Roman Empire. Except for a few words here and there, comparing ancient manuscripts gives us almost exactly what the original said.

An we have the New Testament in the original Greek. If you don't read Greek, comparing several modern translations gives you a very good idea of what the original says.

 

[Bible2]

GaryWonder said in post #7:

So the unelect will spend an eternity in hell.

Yes. God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Rom. 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Rom. 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Rom. 9:20-22, Prov. 16:4); they were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4); they were appointed to disobedience (1 Pet. 2:8b, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (Jas. 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Rom. 2:6-8) because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people. God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Rom. 9:21-22, Prov. 16:4, Rev. 14:10-11), and God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Rom. 9:23, Eph. 3:10, 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known both to humans and angels (Eph. 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Pet. 1:12b). E.g., the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until the devil and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal punishment of the lake of fire (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isa. 66:24), the eternal hell (Mk. 9:45-46), and realize by actually seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it (by way of contrast) the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lam. 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of his wrath.

But from what I've learned recently, by looking further, is that we can't use our own ideas of justice and righteousness in judging what God does.

That's right. As mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God himself has chosen to reveal all that he is (Rom. 9:20-24), both a loving being (1 Jn. 4:8, Jn. 15:13, Mt. 26:28) and a vengeful being (Heb. 12:29, Lk. 12:49, 2 Thes. 1:8-9). We mustn't say it's evil for God not to save everyone and to send the unsaved into eternal punishment (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 14:10-11), for by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and his wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Mt. 16:23).

No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isa. 14:12-14), so important that God would never even think of not saving all of us and casting some of us into hell forever (Isa. 14:15, Rev. 20:10,15), we must always remember that it's God's right to do whatever he wants with his creatures (Rom. 9:21-23), and that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth less than nothing compared with God (Isa. 40:17-18, Dan. 4:35). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (Jas. 4:7-10, 1 Pet. 5:6-8), pleading that he might have mercy upon us sinners (Lk. 18:13-14).

The devil would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject the God of the Bible (YHWH) as evil, so that we'll end up in the lake of fire forever with the devil and his fallen angels (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Mk. 9:43-44). The future Antichrist (the AC), who will be empowered by the devil (2 Thes. 2:9, Rev. 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Rev. 13:6, Dan. 11:36), and no doubt one of his blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ himself isn't in the flesh: 2 Jn. 1:7.) During the AC's future worldwide reign, the world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the AC (the individual-man aspect of the beast) instead (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9).

It's the ultimate proof of the humility of believers (Jas. 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Mt. 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Rom. 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Mt. 25:41,46) without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things. For it means that believers have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH (Deut. 32:4, 1 Jn. 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isa. 40:17, Dan. 4:35).

 

[parsley]

Welcome here! That is an amazing story of survival. It is also so difficult to uproot yourself from the comforts of home, to live in a state of risk for so many months. Thank you for your willingness to go.

God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Rom. 9:11-22).

Personally, there's a little dissonance with that.

Here too. Not many Christians stands behind such a blunt view of predestination.

Later in Romans 9, he quotes Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one, and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."

Israel's Unbelief

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith.
​

Who were the elect at the time of the writing? The Hebrew lineage of Jacob. The chapter in Romans was openly comparing Jews with Gentiles.

Those who were Gentiles were political opponents, operated under different legal and ethical systems; and did offensive things in their worship of idols.

It is not that God randomly hated people that he didn't pre-select. God is Holy and pure, and protects people from injustices. If people openly serve themselves and harm others through their actions, then they make themselves the enemy of God and all that He stands for. They are not operating out of love for others, but out of love for themselves.

But throughout the Bible, Old and New Testaments, God makes exceptions. Faith is counted toward righteousness.

I agree that humility is critical in how we approach God, but He has also made it clear that Christ died once, for ALL.

Ro 6:10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Heb 5:9And, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:2-10 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Pe 3:18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.



Everyone can choose to believe in God's offer for their salvation.

That is why evangelists and missionaries are so compelled to get the word out!

 

[Bible2]

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people . . ."

Rom. 9:25-26 applies to elect Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 9:24-26), who, while they're in unbelief (e.g. Rom. 11:28), aren't God's people insofar as they aren't grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Rom. 11:20), but when they come into belief they become God's people insofar as they get grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Rom. 11:17,24).

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved . . ."

Rom. 9:27-29 means only a remnant of genetic Israel will be saved, just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole will be saved (Mt. 7:14), for only a remnant of Israel and of humanity as a whole is elect (chosen) (Mt. 22:14).

Who were the elect at the time of the writing?

Those Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 9:23-24, 8:29-39, Col. 3:12) who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11, 2 Thes. 2:13), before they were born (Rom. 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). While Rom. 9:1-5 is referring to genetic Jews, Rom. 9:6-24 shows that being part of the elect, the true Israel, the spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics, but on God's election (Rom. 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Rom. 9:24). Both elect Jews and elect Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Eph. 2:12,19, Rom. 11:17,24), the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:28-29), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Gal. 4:28).

While the Bible doesn't say by what criteria God determined which people to create as the elect vessels of his mercy and which people to create as the nonelect vessels of his wrath (Rom. 9:21-23), God's criteria weren't based on any differences between individual people (Rom. 3:9-12), just as, e.g., King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill and which to keep alive weren't based on any differences between the individual people (2 Sam. 8:2), and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor aren't based on any differences between the two parts of clay (Rom. 9:21).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Rom. 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Jn. 20:31, 1 Jn. 5:13) through their own will (Rom. 9:16, Jn. 1:13, 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16). The nonelect can't possibly ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (Jn. 8:42-47, 10:26, Mt. 13:38-42), for the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b, Heb. 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 11:18).

Nonetheless, saved people are commanded to preach the gospel to every unsaved person (Mk. 16:15-16), for saved people don't know, and must never assume, which unsaved people are elect (Acts 13:48b) and which unsaved people are nonelect (Jn. 8:42-47). And God gives the elect his miraculous gift of faith through their hearing the preaching of his Word (Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b).

Rom 6:10

Rom. 6:10 - "For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God."

Rom. 6:10 means Jesus died once for all time (1 Pet. 3:18, Heb. 7:27, 9:26-28, 10:10,12), for the elect. For Jesus' sheep whom he died to save (Jn. 10:11,14-15) are the elect (1 Pet 1:2, 3:18, 4:1), those who are able to believe in him (Jn. 10:27) and who will believe in him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to the nonelect, who can't possibly ever believe in him (Jn. 8:42-47), because they aren't his sheep (Jn. 10:26).

Heb 5:9

Heb. 5:9 - "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"

The obedience required for the ultimate salvation of believers (Hebrews 5:9) includes both their good works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24) and their not continuing in sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So it includes both what they do and don't do.

Heb 7:27

Heb. 7:27 - "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."

Heb. 7:27 means Jesus died once for all time. Heb. 7:27's "the people" is the elect (see "Rom. 6:10" above).

Heb 9:12

Heb. 9:12 - "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Heb. 9:12 means Jesus died once for all time, for the elect.

Heb 9:26

Heb. 9:26 - "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Heb. 9:26 means Jesus died once for all time.

Heb 10:2,10

Heb. 10:2 - "For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

Heb. 10:2 means worshippers under the Mosaic law (Heb. 10:1) weren't purged from sins like Christian worshippers are (Heb. 10:4-10).

Heb. 10:10 means Jesus died once for all time.

1 Pet 3:18

1 Pet. 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet. 3:18 means Jesus died once for all time, for unjust "us", i.e. the elect (1 Pet. 1:2, 4:1), who all start out unjust (Rom. 5:8).

 

[parsley]

I appreciate your extensive provision of quotes. To explain a question that confuses a new believer is one thing, and you did it well, but to push a controversial point is not appropriate.

Why you would want to instill fear and doubt in any believer, that they might not have been chosen, is so counterintuitive. God created all, and declared it good. Jesus paid the price for all. It is not for us to declare the limits of this once-for-all redemption.

That is all I will say, as debate is not intended for this subforum.

 

[paul1149]

Welcome, Gary. That is a wonderful testimony and attitude you have.

The Lord will supply all your needs, including understanding concerning any issues that puzzle you, in due time. When I came to Him I had doubts about some MAJOR things, and nearly drove myself crazy with them. I heard all the arguments on all sides, and got to the point where it was all noise. It had no love in it, no ring of truth to it, and only bred confusion in me. Finally, I placed the whole thing on the altar, and said I would serve the Lord the best I could according to my understanding, and look to Him to show me what I needed.

It took over a year, but my questions were answered, and it was done very simply and quietly, and with a lot of peace. God had supplied my understanding as no man or human doctrine could. Of course, it's good to study, and to listen to various viewpoints. But don't let anyone pressure into leaving the simplicity that is in Christ. It's not worth it. This is why Paul tells us to avoid "doubtful disputations" with those young in the faith (or for that matter, with anyone).

Blessings, and welcome.

 

[GaryWonder]

Thank you, Paul. That's very encouraging!

 

[Bible2]

Every believer can know with absolute certainty that he or she's elect (chosen), for faith comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b, Heb. 12:2). The nonelect can't possibly ever believe in Jesus, even when they're shown the truth (Jn. 8:42-47, 10:26, Mt. 13:38-42), not because they're any worse than the elect (Rom. 3:9-12), but simply because God didn't choose to show them his mercy (Rom. 9:15-22). The elect are shown God's mercy and grace not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Eph. 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11, 2 Thes. 2:13), before they'd done anything at all (Rom. 9:11-24).

During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Rom. 9:18), for he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Rom. 9:20-22, Prov. 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Pet. 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (Jas. 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Rom. 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people. God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Rom. 9:21-22, Prov. 16:4, Rev. 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Rom. 9:23, Eph. 3:10, 1:8,11).

Jesus' divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 Jn. 2:2), but it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Rom. 9:18-24), but of only the elect. For Jesus' sheep whom he died to save (Jn. 10:11,14-15) are the elect (1 Pet 1:2, 3:18, 4:1), those who are able to believe in him (Jn. 10:27) and who will believe in him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to the nonelect, who can't possibly ever believe in him (Jn. 8:42-47), because they aren't his sheep (Jn. 10:26).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 Jn. 2:2), for Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (Jn. 1:1,14, 10:30, 20:28): His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isa. 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isa. 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Mt. 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Mt. 25:46, Rev. 14:10-11, Mk. 9:46). Every human has sinned (Rom. 3:23), except Jesus (Heb. 4:15b, 2 Cor. 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Pet. 3:18, Isa. 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Rom. 3:25-26, Mt. 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isa. 53:11).