If you want to be under the Law, don't keep the Sabbath.

k4c · Jun 4, 2010

When people talk about sin they usually point out adultery, stealing, killing and so on. Sometimes you might hear about using the Lord's name in vain or having other Gods but you almost never hear about forgetting the Sabbath. As soon as you mention the Sabbath you get the reply, "You can keep the Sabbath, if you want to be under the Law."

The funny thing is that you are under the Law when you don't keep the Sabbath.

Since the Law points out sin and no one is justified by keeping the Law when one breaks the Law the Law's power to bring death is activated.

Romans 7:9-13 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

The Law was not made for those who are keeping the Law, but rather, for those who are breaking it.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

In other words, if one is breaking the fourth commandment that person is under the Law in that the power of the Law to bring death is actively working in that person.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

What people should be saying is, "Keep the Sabbath if you don't want to be under the Law."

The grace of God deals with the sin, which is the breaking of the Law, so that the Law loses it's condemning power but not that we should continue to sin ie: break the Law.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Nor should we say that since grace is here the Law is done away with.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Do you see the deception of the evil one?

bugkiller · Jun 10, 2010

k4c said:
When people talk about sin they usually point out adultery, stealing, killing and so on. Sometimes you might hear about using the Lord's name in vain or having other Gods but you almost never hear about forgetting the Sabbath. As soon as you mention the Sabbath you get the reply, "You can keep the Sabbath, if you want to be under the Law."

The funny thing is that you are under the Law when you don't keep the Sabbath.

I think the funny thing is you don't understand that keeping the law as being subject to (under) the law. You seem to be saying that the results of breaking the law is all that we are subject to.

Since the Law points out sin and no one is justified by keeping the Law when one breaks the Law the Law's power to bring death is activated.

Romans 7:9-13 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

The Law was not made for those who are keeping the Law, but rather, for those who are breaking it.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Note who the law is made for. Righteousness does not come from or by keeping the law. If you could be righteous in God's site by keeping the law Jesus died in vain. Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We know by Romans 4:3-8 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

From the above we see that righteousness is not obtained thrugh keeping the law. It is given by God and is His righteousness - not ours. Without this righteousness of God you can not have fellowship with Him. IOW you can not be saved or redeemed.

In other words, if one is breaking the fourth commandment that person is under the Law in that the power of the Law to bring death is actively working in that person.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

What people should be saying is, "Keep the Sabbath if you don't want to be under the Law."

So what you are really saying is that you want to be free of the consequences of breaking the law. If you subject yourself to the law you don't bear the punishment for breaking that law. You are trying to be slick and avoid the results of breaking the law. This is your fear. You can not refrain from breaking the law, thus you need a Redeemer from that law. Without a rightousness that exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you can not enter heaven (be saved). This righteousness does not come by observing the law. That righteousness is compared to filthy rags. You do know what filty rags are, correct?

The grace of God deals with the sin, which is the breaking of the Law, so that the Law loses it's condemning power but not that we should continue to sin ie: break the Law.

What value is the law if it does not have any power to be enforced? Lacking this power it can not convict - punish. Conviction is punishment.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Nor should we say that since grace is here the Law is done away with.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Do you see the deception of the evil one?

No! But I do see your deception.

Sin was before the law. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

bugkiller

JohnRabbit · Jun 10, 2010

bugkiller said:
I think the funny thing is you don't understand that keeping the law as being subject to (under) the law. You seem to be saying that the results of breaking the law is all that we are subject to. Note who the law is made for. Righteousness does not come from or by keeping the law. If you could be righteous in God's site by keeping the law Jesus died in vain. Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We know by Romans 4:3-8 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

From the above we see that righteousness is not obtained thrugh keeping the law. It is given by God and is His righteousness - not ours. Without this righteousness of God you can not have fellowship with Him. IOW you can not be saved or redeemed.So what you are really saying is that you want to be free of the consequences of breaking the law. If you subject yourself to the law you don't bear the punishment for breaking that law. You are trying to be slick and avoid the results of breaking the law. This is your fear. You can not refrain from breaking the law, thus you need a Redeemer from that law. Without a rightousness that exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you can not enter heaven (be saved). This righteousness does not come by observing the law. That righteousness is compared to filthy rags. You do know what filty rags are, correct? What value is the law if it does not have any power to be enforced? Lacking this power it can not convict - punish. Conviction is punishment.No! But I do see your deception.

Sin was before the law. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

bugkiller
[/quote/]

in revelation 14 we read:

Revelation 14:12 ( NKJV ) 12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

now, of course, we have to play along with bugkiller and play the part of they, who do not know what commandments this verse is talking about.

one more time:

old covenant

ten commandments = guideline

mosaic law = guide

new covenant

ten commandments = guideline

Holy Spirit = Guide

VictorC · Jun 10, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
in revelation 14 we read:

Revelation 14:12 ( NKJV ) 12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

now, of course, we have to play along with bugkiller and play the part of they, who do not know what commandments this verse is talking about.

one more time:

old covenant

ten commandments = guideline

mosaic law = guide

new covenant

ten commandments = guideline

Holy Spirit = Guide

Didn't you write this fabrication on the GT forum a couple of weeks ago? Why are you repeating it here? The ten commandments was the covenant dictated at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4), it was legally binding with compliance requisite to live and enter the promised land (Deuteronomy 30), Moses said so, and nobody other than you calls the first covenant a "guideline".

We know the commandments of God.
The present tense does not refer to the first covenant taken away by the Hand of God (Hebrews 10:9). The same author (John) of Revelation explained to you the commandments of God in his first epistle (3:23). Why do you disregard the commandments of God, and attempt to replace them with the first covenant He delivered us from (Romans 7:6-7).

Quit reading theology from the corn flakes box, and use a Bible instead.

bugkiller · Jun 10, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
bugkiller said:

I think the funny thing is you don't understand that keeping the law as being subject to (under) the law. You seem to be saying that the results of breaking the law is all that we are subject to. Note who the law is made for. Righteousness does not come from or by keeping the law. If you could be righteous in God's site by keeping the law Jesus died in vain. Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We know by Romans 4:3-8 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

From the above we see that righteousness is not obtained thrugh keeping the law. It is given by God and is His righteousness - not ours. Without this righteousness of God you can not have fellowship with Him. IOW you can not be saved or redeemed.So what you are really saying is that you want to be free of the consequences of breaking the law. If you subject yourself to the law you don't bear the punishment for breaking that law. You are trying to be slick and avoid the results of breaking the law. This is your fear. You can not refrain from breaking the law, thus you need a Redeemer from that law. Without a rightousness that exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you can not enter heaven (be saved). This righteousness does not come by observing the law. That righteousness is compared to filthy rags. You do know what filty rags are, correct? What value is the law if it does not have any power to be enforced? Lacking this power it can not convict - punish. Conviction is punishment.No! But I do see your deception.

Sin was before the law. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

bugkiller
[/quote/]

in revelation 14 we read:

Revelation 14:12 ( NKJV ) 12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

now, of course, we have to play along with bugkiller and play the part of they, who do not know what commandments this verse is talking about.

one more time:

old covenant

ten commandments = guideline

mosaic law = guide

new covenant

ten commandments = guideline

Holy Spirit = Guide

Click to expand...

I understand where you get the ten commandments from in the OC. I do not understand where you get them them from in the NC. They are no where given as a unit in the NT as they are in the OT. In the OT they are repeated three times as a unit - meaning all together. This does not happen in the NT. In fact Jesus does not even cite the ten commandments when asked what is the greatest law/commandment.

Jer 31:31-34 specifically v 32 says that the new covenant (v 31) is not like the one already established. It does not say the ten commandments are written in the heart. It says God's law which is a change in termanology. IOW I am saying that the Torah or Pentateuch is not the all inclusive law of God. Where as I think you are.

Yes you quote Rev 4:12 about commandments. I think you are locked into a bad or misunderstanding of commandments. I present again I John 3:23 And this is His (God the Father's) commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus) gave us commandment.

Notice that God's commandment is singular and we are to do what Jesus commanded. Now where did you say Jesus said keep the sabbath? I don't remember you providing that quote to date. If you did will you please show me again. As soon as you show that reference I will submit.

bugkiller

YosemiteSam · Jun 10, 2010

bugkiller said:
JohnRabbit said:

I understand where you get the ten commandments from in the OC. I do not understand where you get them them from in the NC. They are no where given as a unit in the NT as they are in the OT. In the OT they are repeated three times as a unit - meaning all together. This does not happen in the NT. In fact Jesus does not even cite the ten commandments when asked what is the greatest law/commandment.

Jer 31:31-34 specifically v 32 says that the new covenant (v 31) is not like the one already established. It does not say the ten commandments are written in the heart. It says God's law which is a change in termanology. IOW I am saying that the Torah or Pentateuch is not the all inclusive law of God. Where as I think you are.

Yes you quote Rev 4:12 about commandments. I think you are locked into a bad or misunderstanding of commandments. I present again I John 3:23 And this is His (God the Father's) commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus) gave us commandment.

Notice that God's commandment is singular and we are to do what Jesus commanded. Now where did you say Jesus said keep the sabbath? I don't remember you providing that quote to date. If you did will you please show me again. As soon as you show that reference I will submit.

bugkiller

Click to expand...

Not so quick there bug killer, you forgot to continue with John’s train of thought, “And this is his commandment, “That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”….continue…v24 “And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him….”

Christ told the disciples to “love one another.” Do you not remember how the law is fulfilled? Well then turn to Rom 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” It is “love” that fulfills the law.

Also, let’s remember 1 Jn 5:3 “For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous” Here from the same book you quote it is plural.
As far as writing the laws in their hearts, Notice Heb 8:10 “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.”

You say that you do not understand where you get them from in the New Testament. Do you not understand what our Lord said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.” What else did he say, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”

Notice first, of whom asked the question. A Pharisee! Do you not think that the Jew knew which law to which Christ was referring to? Also notice that the Pharisee and Sadducees were silenced. They could find no contradiction to his teaching.

I will state here that the first four of the commandments are love thy God and the next six pertaining to love thy neighbor.

Each of the Ten Commandments are found in the New Testament as well. Can you find them?

As pertaining to the Sabbath, you state, “Where did Jesus say keep the Sabbath?” Do you not remember that he also was our example? “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” Will you now contend, he meant just to follow him down the brick road? What did Paul say:

“Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” KJ
“Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.” NIV
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” ESV

True Christians are to imitate Christ! What day did Christ go into the synagogues? What about Paul and the others? If you say the Sabbath, then you are correct! Look briefly at Heb 4:9:

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;” NIV
“So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” ESV
“There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.”

Example upon example is given in the New Testament of how true Christians are to live and this includes the keeping of the Ten Commandments, yes, even the Sabbath. Christ told us that He was the “Lord of the Sabbath”. He instructed us on how to keep the Sabbath.

Why would not Christ mention the keeping of the Sabbath? Consider his audience, Jews, the very people who were already keeping the Sabbath. If the Sabbath, were abolished as some say, why would Jesus in the Mount Olivet prophecy state, “But pray ye not that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:” Here he is speaking of His return. If it were eliminated then why would this be a problem?

You stated you cannot find in the New Testament where Christ said to keep the Sabbath. Looking into the example of the apostles, the church and our Lord you will find how true Christians are to live today. All must submit to God and that includes his laws. I hope you spend some time to prove this for yourself with an open mind and much prayer.

True Christians obey God’s law; however, they cannot live a perfect sinless life. They recognize sin through the definition of the law and struggle daily to overcome it. Because of grace “the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts” and they are counted as righteous and are no longer “under the law”, that is its penalty. But for the rest of us, we are under the law.

James calls when speaking of the Ten Commandments refers to it as a “royal law.” The definition of “royal” is relating to or in the service of a kingdom. The Ten Commandments are the spiritual laws of the Kingdom of God. It is God’s mind set. It encompasses “Love.”

k4c · Jun 11, 2010

YosemiteSam said:
bugkiller said:

Not so quick there bug killer, you forgot to continue with Johns train of thought, And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment..continuev24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
Christ told the disciples to love one another. Do you not remember how the law is fulfilled? Well then turn to Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. It is love that fulfills the law.
Also, lets remember 1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous Here from the same book you quote it is plural.
As far as writing the laws in their hearts, Notice Heb 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.
You say that you do not understand where you get them from in the New Testament. Do you not understand what our Lord said, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. What else did he say, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Notice first, of whom asked the question. A Pharisee! Do you not think that the Jew knew which law to which Christ was referring to? Also notice that the Pharisee and Sadducees were silenced. They could find no contradiction to his teaching.
I will state here that the first four of the commandments are love thy God and the next six pertaining to love thy neighbor.
Each of the Ten Commandments are found in the New Testament as well. Can you find them?
As pertaining to the Sabbath, you state, Where did Jesus say keep the Sabbath? Do you not remember that he also was our example? Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Will you now contend, he meant just to follow him down the brick road? What did Paul say:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. KJ
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. NIV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ ESV
True Christians are to imitate Christ! What day did Christ go into the synagogues? What about Paul and the others? If you say the Sabbath, then you are correct! Look briefly at Heb 4:9:
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; NIV
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God ESV
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Example upon example is given in the New Testament of how true Christians are to live and this includes the keeping of the Ten Commandments, yes, even the Sabbath. Christ told us that He was the Lord of the Sabbath. He instructed us on how to keep the Sabbath. Why would not Christ mention the keeping of the Sabbath? Consider his audience, Jews, the very people who were already keeping the Sabbath. If the Sabbath, were abolished as some say, why would Jesus in the Mount Olivet prophecy state, But pray ye not that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: Here he is speaking of His return. If it were eliminated then why would this be a problem?
You stated you cannot find in the New Testament where Christ said to keep the Sabbath. Looking into the example of the apostles, the church and our Lord you will find how true Christians are to live today. All must submit to God and that includes his laws. I hope you spend some time to prove this for yourself with an open mind and much prayer.
True Christians obey Gods law; however, they cannot live a perfect sinless life. They recognize sin through the definition of the law and struggle daily to overcome it. Because of grace the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts and they are counted as righteous and are no longer under the law, that is its penalty. But for the rest of us, we are under the law.
James calls when speaking of the Ten Commandments refers to it as a royal law. The definition of royal is relating to or in the service of a kingdom. The Ten Commandments are the spiritual laws of the Kingdom of God. It is Gods mind set. It encompasses Love.

Click to expand...

Amen and amen...beautiful. Very well said.

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

VictorC said:
Didn't you write this fabrication on the GT forum a couple of weeks ago? Why are you repeating it here? The ten commandments was the covenant dictated at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4), it was legally binding with compliance requisite to live and enter the promised land (Deuteronomy 30), Moses said so, and nobody other than you calls the first covenant a "guideline".

We know the commandments of God.
The present tense does not refer to the first covenant taken away by the Hand of God (Hebrews 10:9). The same author (John) of Revelation explained to you the commandments of God in his first epistle (3:23). Why do you disregard the commandments of God, and attempt to replace them with the first covenant He delivered us from (Romans 7:6-7).

Quit reading theology from the corn flakes box, and use a Bible instead.

yes, he wrote about the commandments in that verse.

he's saying what the commandments have always said, love toward God, and love toward neighbor.

why? it seem that you have a problem with that?

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

VictorC said:
Didn't you write this fabrication on the GT forum a couple of weeks ago? Why are you repeating it here? The ten commandments was the covenant dictated at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4), it was legally binding with compliance requisite to live and enter the promised land (Deuteronomy 30), Moses said so, and nobody other than you calls the first covenant a "guideline".

We know the commandments of God.
The present tense does not refer to the first covenant taken away by the Hand of God (Hebrews 10:9). The same author (John) of Revelation explained to you the commandments of God in his first epistle (3:23). Why do you disregard the commandments of God, and attempt to replace them with the first covenant He delivered us from (Romans 7:6-7).

Quit reading theology from the corn flakes box, and use a Bible instead.

what have you got against the ten commandments.

and if the sabbath was abolished then why did Jesus gives advice concerning the sabbath at the onset of the tribulation? matt 24

bugkiller · Jun 11, 2010

YosemiteSam said:
Not so quick there bug killer, you forgot to continue with Johns train of thought, And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment..continuev24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.

I see what you are saying. And just a casual reading will confirm what you said. My resources indicate that the same word is used in both verses. Just why comandment and comandments are used in consecutive verses is beyond me. I assume you have an explination. I also keep in mind Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13 when I read I John 3:23. From your view point it appears that there is a serious contradiction. I take it that the His in verse 24 is also referring to Jesus and see no contradiction. This would follow as it would be the same subject in being Jesus.

Christ told the disciples to love one another. Do you not remember how the law is fulfilled? Well then turn to Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. It is love that fulfills the law.
Also, lets remember 1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous Here from the same book you quote it is plural.

Yes and here it seems to the casual reader that John is talking about God the Father. I think that the pronoun His is referring to Jesus in keeping with the subject of John's letter.

As far as writing the laws in their hearts, Notice Heb 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.
You say that you do not understand where you get them from in the New Testament. Do you not understand what our Lord said, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. What else did he say, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

And Jesus did exactly that - fulfill the law and the prophets - thus meeting the requirements of the OC. You maintain that at least some of the law has been done away with. I say if any of the law has been done away with it has all been done away with. The law is a single indivisible unit as James 2:10 and Gal 5:3 indicate for fast references.

To balance the Mat 5:17 I provide Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. This paves the way for the complete OC to be put aside. I have not even mentioned Mat 26:28 where Jesus says the NC is in existence or now in force or place. I referenced Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-13 above also.

Notice first, of whom asked the question. A Pharisee! Do you not think that the Jew knew which law to which Christ was referring to? Also notice that the Pharisee and Sadducees were silenced. They could find no contradiction to his teaching.
I will state here that the first four of the commandments are love thy God and the next six pertaining to love thy neighbor.
Each of the Ten Commandments are found in the New Testament as well. Can you find them?

No I can't find keep the sabbath. I notice you never give a NT reference for this. How is it that you will not provide such? I think it is the same reason I give, it ain't there. Thus you have no support for your claim about the sabbath being a requirement in the NC.

As pertaining to the Sabbath, you state, Where did Jesus say keep the Sabbath? Do you not remember that he also was our example? Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Will you now contend, he meant just to follow him down the brick road? What did Paul say:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. KJ
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. NIV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ ESV
True Christians are to imitate Christ! What day did Christ go into the synagogues? What about Paul and the others? If you say the Sabbath, then you are correct! Look briefly at Heb 4:9:
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; NIV
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God ESV
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Example upon example is given in the New Testament of how true Christians are to live and this includes the keeping of the Ten Commandments, yes, even the Sabbath. Christ told us that He was the Lord of the Sabbath. He instructed us on how to keep the Sabbath. Why would not Christ mention the keeping of the Sabbath? Consider his audience, Jews, the very people who were already keeping the Sabbath. If the Sabbath, were abolished as some say, why would Jesus in the Mount Olivet prophecy state, But pray ye not that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: Here he is speaking of His return. If it were eliminated then why would this be a problem?

I would challenge you on the fact you are not doing as Jesus did. First you are not going into the synagogue each sabbath.Why not? That seems rather simple. That is what Jesus did, remember. I would next challenge your baptism as even remotely resembling Jesus' mikveh or baptism in oath and form. I would also challenge you about washing the feet of the disciples - fellow believers as Jesus did dressed as a slave/servant. That was naked BTW and so was His baptism out doors. Are you really doing as Jesus did? I rather doubt it.

I see there is alot more in your above paragraph. Jesus is talking to the Jew about fleeing on the sabbath. Jesus is not talking to the whole world about fleeing on the sabbath. Jesus is speaking of what will happen in Jersualem as well. So His comments are limited to people and place. A sabbath day's journey is less than a mile. These people are Jews that Jesus is speaking to and they keep the sabbath. BTW what does a pregnat woman have to do with the sabbath also mentioned in the same narrative?

There remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God. Amen and Jesus is that sabbath-rest. Jesus offered it to those who would come to Him Mat 11:28-30. If Jesus was offering some thing the people already had why would they come to Him? Jesus offered something the sabbath did not.

I have no clue as to why Jesus did not say keep the sabbath. Do you? Before you say it is a given, why are not stealing bearing false witness, adultery not also givens?

Since you make a deal of Jesus being Lord of the sabbath why is Jesus not also Lord of the other six days? Is satan lord those other six days. It appears that Jesus is not.

You stated you cannot find in the New Testament where Christ said to keep the Sabbath. Looking into the example of the apostles, the church and our Lord you will find how true Christians are to live today. All must submit to God and that includes his laws. I hope you spend some time to prove this for yourself with an open mind and much prayer.

Whatever are you talking about? Paul being in the synagogue on the sabbath as observing the sabbath? Where do you get worship as a requirement of the sabbath. I can't even find that in the OT anywhere. Paul was not in the synagogue for the purpose of the sabbath or worship. He was there strictly to evangelize the Jews. The order of the synagogue was not anything like what we have at church today. I think yo can find a hint in Acts 13:15 about the way the meeting of the synagogue.

True Christians obey Gods law; however, they cannot live a perfect sinless life. They recognize sin through the definition of the law and struggle daily to overcome it. Because of grace the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts and they are counted as righteous and are no longer under the law, that is its penalty. But for the rest of us, we are under the law.
James calls when speaking of the Ten Commandments refers to it as a royal law. The definition of royal is relating to or in the service of a kingdom. The Ten Commandments are the spiritual laws of the Kingdom of God. It is Gods mind set. It encompasses Love.

I agree that true Christians keep God's law. I however do not agree that means the ten commandments. I understand that you use the terms interchangably. I do not. Your doing so allows for the confusion and the promotion of the requirement to keep the OC.

I have been doing this for 10 years and you are the first to call the ten commandments the royal law. Where do you get this idea from?

Oh and it is nice to know that you are SDA.

bugkiller

VictorC · Jun 11, 2010

YosemiteSam said:
True Christians are to imitate Christ! What day did Christ go into the synagogues? What about Paul and the others? If you say the Sabbath, then you are correct! Look briefly at Heb 4:9:
“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;” NIV
“So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” ESV
“There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.”

Hebrews 4:9 does not say anything about a sabbath continuing past the demise of the first covenant God took away with His own hand (Hebrews 10:9, the same epistle).

Hebrews 4
1 ¶ Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 ¶ Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

The entire context is addressing another day that was promised yet to attain, and the recipients of this epistle already had the sabbath. Hebrews 4:9 uses the Greek sabbatismos to refer to that rest that was God's alone, and the sabbath sabbaton is never used. Sabbatismos is a permanent "keeping sabbath" rest according to Thayer's Lexicon, equal to God's rest that was permanent ever since its origin on the seventh day of creation - and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's rest.

The sabbath doesn't remain, but rather entrance into God's rest does, and "he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His".
The context and the Greek do not support your contention that the sabbath remains. Hebrews 10:1-9 shows God's displeasure in all the ordinances that required burnt offerings, and you should consult Numbers 28:9-10 before you continue thinking God wants you to keep a weekly sabbath instead of entering into His permanent rest He made available to you.

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

VictorC,

why are you so mean to me?

i know we disagree on things, but i would never say you get you theology from the back of a cornflake box!

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

VictorC said:
Hebrews 4:9 does not say anything about a sabbath continuiing pas the demise of the first covenant God took away with His own hand (Hebrews 10:9, the same epistle).

Hebrews 4
1 ¶ Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 ¶ Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

The entire context is addressing another day that was promised yet to attain, and the recipients of this epistle already had the sabbath. Hebrews 4:9 uses the Greek sabbatismos to refer to that rest that was God's alone, and the sabbath sabbaton is never used. Sabbatismos is a permanent "keeping sabbath" rest according to Thayer's Lexicon, equal to God's rest that was permanent ever since its origin on the seventh day of creation - and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's rest.

The sabbath doesn't remain, but rather entrance into God's rest does, and "he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His".
The context and the Greek do not support your contention that the sabbath remains. Hebrews 10:1-9 shows God's displeasure in all the ordinances that required burnt offerings, and you should consult Numbers 28:9-10 before you continue thinking God wants you to keep a weekly sabbath instead of entering into His permanent rest He made available to you.

then, show me where there are burnt offerings mentioned in the ten commandments.

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

bugkiller said:
I see what you are saying. And just a casual reading will confirm what you said. My resources indicate that the same word is used in both verses. Just why comandment and comandments are used in consecutive verses is beyond me. I assume you have an explination. I also keep in mind Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13 when I read I John 3:23. From your view point it appears that there is a serious contradiction. I take it that the His in verse 24 is also referring to Jesus and see no contradiction. This would follow as it would be the same subject in being Jesus. Yes and here it seems to the casual reader that John is talking about God the Father. I think that the pronoun His is referring to Jesus in keeping with the subject of John's letter. And Jesus did exactly that - fulfill the law and the prophets - thus meeting the requirements of the OC. You maintain that at least some of the law has been done away with. I say if any of the law has been done away with it has all been done away with. The law is a single indivisible unit as James 2:10 and Gal 5:3 indicate for fast references.

To balance the Mat 5:17 I provide Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. This paves the way for the complete OC to be put aside. I have not even mentioned Mat 26:28 where Jesus says the NC is in existence or now in force or place. I referenced Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-13 above also. No I can't find keep the sabbath. I notice you never give a NT reference for this. How is it that you will not provide such? I think it is the same reason I give, it ain't there. Thus you have no support for your claim about the sabbath being a requirement in the NC. I would challenge you on the fact you are not doing as Jesus did. First you are not going into the synagogue each sabbath.Why not? That seems rather simple. That is what Jesus did, remember. I would next challenge your baptism as even remotely resembling Jesus' mikveh or baptism in oath and form. I would also challenge you about washing the feet of the disciples - fellow believers as Jesus did dressed as a slave/servant. That was naked BTW and so was His baptism out doors. Are you really doing as Jesus did? I rather doubt it.

I see there is alot more in your above paragraph. Jesus is talking to the Jew about fleeing on the sabbath. Jesus is not talking to the whole world about fleeing on the sabbath. Jesus is speaking of what will happen in Jersualem as well. So His comments are limited to people and place. A sabbath day's journey is less than a mile. These people are Jews that Jesus is speaking to and they keep the sabbath. BTW what does a pregnat woman have to do with the sabbath also mentioned in the same narrative?

There remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God. Amen and Jesus is that sabbath-rest. Jesus offered it to those who would come to Him Mat 11:28-30. If Jesus was offering some thing the people already had why would they come to Him? Jesus offered something the sabbath did not.

I have no clue as to why Jesus did not say keep the sabbath. Do you? Before you say it is a given, why are not stealing bearing false witness, adultery not also givens?

Since you make a deal of Jesus being Lord of the sabbath why is Jesus not also Lord of the other six days? Is satan lord those other six days. It appears that Jesus is not.
Whatever are you talking about? Paul being in the synagogue on the sabbath as observing the sabbath? Where do you get worship as a requirement of the sabbath. I can't even find that in the OT anywhere. Paul was not in the synagogue for the purpose of the sabbath or worship. He was there strictly to evangelize the Jews. The order of the synagogue was not anything like what we have at church today. I think yo can find a hint in Acts 13:15 about the way the meeting of the synagogue.
I agree that true Christians keep God's law. I however do not agree that means the ten commandments. I understand that you use the terms interchangably. I do not. Your doing so allows for the confusion and the promotion of the requirement to keep the OC.

I have been doing this for 10 years and you are the first to call the ten commandments the royal law. Where do you get this idea from?

Oh and it is nice to know that you are SDA.

bugkiller

con·vo·ca·tion (from dictionary.com)
noun
1. the act of convoking.
2. the state of being convoked.
3. a group of people gathered in answer to a summons; assembly.
4. Anglican Church . either of the two provincial synods or assemblies of the clergy.
5. Protestant Episcopal Church .
a. an assembly of the clergy of part of a diocese.
b. the area represented at such an assembly.
6. a formal assembly at a college or university, esp. for a graduation ceremony.

Leviticus 23:3 ( NKJV ) 3Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

since you couldn't find it. i thought i'd help you.

bugkiller · Jun 11, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
VictorC,

why are you so mean to me?

i know we disagree on things, but i would never say you get you theology from the back of a cornflake box!

I have an idea why he would say such a thing. It seem obvious to him (me too) that your theology does not come from the Bible at least the one I have. I don't know why he would use cornflake box except that Dr Kellogg was an SDA and a convient way to say something else, if you read between the lines.

I do not think he is being mean at all.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jun 11, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
con·vo·ca·tion (from dictionary.com)
noun
1. the act of convoking.
2. the state of being convoked.
3. a group of people gathered in answer to a summons; assembly.
4. Anglican Church . either of the two provincial synods or assemblies of the clergy.
5. Protestant Episcopal Church .
a. an assembly of the clergy of part of a diocese.
b. the area represented at such an assembly.
6. a formal assembly at a college or university, esp. for a graduation ceremony.

Leviticus 23:3 ( NKJV ) 3Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

since you couldn't find it. i thought i'd help you.

Last time I looked Leviticus is not in the NT. That could be a reason I can't find it in the NT. A holy convocation is not worship. It is a special meeting. Work is not worship either.

bugkiller

VictorC · Jun 11, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
VictorC said:

Didn't you write this fabrication on the GT forum a couple of weeks ago? Why are you repeating it here? The ten commandments was the covenant dictated at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4), it was legally binding with compliance requisite to live and enter the promised land (Deuteronomy 30), Moses said so, and nobody other than you calls the first covenant a "guideline".

We know the commandments of God.
The present tense does not refer to the first covenant taken away by the Hand of God (Hebrews 10:9). The same author (John) of Revelation explained to you the commandments of God in his first epistle (3:23). Why do you disregard the commandments of God, and attempt to replace them with the first covenant He delivered us from (Romans 7:6-7).

Click to expand...

yes, he wrote about the commandments in that verse.

he's saying what the commandments have always said, love toward God, and love toward neighbor.

why? it seem that you have a problem with that?

It seems your comments aren't addressing what I wrote. You apparently replaced the commandments of God with a reference to "the" commandments, and your mind is stuck on the ten commandments, which as I explained was the first covenant ordained from Mount Sinai.

How do you reconcile your comments concerning "the" commandments with Paul's instruction to cast off the bondwoman in Galatians 4:30, which he defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in verse 24 of this same chapter?

bugkiller · Jun 11, 2010

JohnRabbit said:
then, show me where there are burnt offerings mentioned in the ten commandments.

Just as soon as you show/prove worship is connected with the sabbath in the ten commandments.

bugkiller

YosemiteSam · Jun 11, 2010

bugkiller said:
I have been doing this for 10 years and you are the first to call the ten commandments the royal law. Where do you get this idea from?

Oh and it is nice to know that you are SDA.

bugkiller

Since your so curious, yes, I do keep the Sabbath (from sunset to sunset)...that would be since you are in doubt...You mention the washing of the feet...yes, this is done at Passover....you mention baptism...unfortunately as of yet I am not....but when I do it will be by submersion...and I understand it is symbolic of the death and resurrection....

Actually, bugkiller, there is a true church...and they do understand...you say you have been doing this for 10 years as though it means something...it took me 20 to realize I was wrong...now I have been studying over 25...

You said, "glad to know your SDA"....I am not...

You accuse others that they are all twisted up, like you did to JohnRabbit....Might I suggest you start all over, and this time make sure your eyes are wide open..

JohnRabbit · Jun 11, 2010

bugkiller said:
Last time I looked Leviticus is not in the NT. That could be a reason I can't find it in the NT. A holy convocation is not worship. It is a special meeting. Work is not worship either.

bugkiller

Matthew 24:20 ( NKJV ) 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

so why did christ give us advice concerning the sabbath for the end times?

surely He knew the sabbath would be abolished.

If you want to be under the Law, don't keep the Sabbath.

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