If you want to be under the Law, don't keep the Sabbath.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

Sophia7 said:
Acts 15 certainly did set a standard for Gentile Christians. They were not required to be circumcised nor to submit themselves to the law. What Peter called "a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" (15:10) is the same law to which Paul said in Galatians 5 that we should not subject ourselves:

1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Circumcision bound people as slaves to the whole law--not only to what Adventists call "the ceremonial law" but to the whole law. However, Gentiles are not required to be circumcised, so we are not yoked to the law. We are not under the law at all, according to Galatians:

5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The issue was whether one needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. If circumcision was necessary to be made right with God than one must keep the whole law, not just circumcision because holiness required perfection in all areas. But Paul goes on to say how it's not by works of the law that one is saved, but rather, by belief in the gospel. The issue all throughout the verses you quote is not that we shouldn't obey the Ten Commandments, but rather, what is needed to enter into salvation.

Is abstaining from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled and from blood a yoke of bondage too that has been placed on the Gentiles? Should we become as a JW and not take blood transfusions? Do you commit adultery in the mind? What would you classify as something in your life that has been polluted by an idol? Should you go to the butcher to find out if the chicken you ate last night for dinner had been strangled? Should you not honor your mother and father so that you might receive the blessing attatched to it?

Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.''

It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

Being under grace does not mean we can break God's Law.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Not being under the Law means something different than not being accoutable to the Ten Commandments.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Straying from truth has allowed homosexuallity to creep into the Christian faith and it's leadership. They even use the Bible to justify it. Have you gotten to that point yet? If not, why not? You've already thrown out the Ten Commandments. What's next?

StormyOne · Jun 20, 2010

what's next is how about starting a thread that doesn't deal with the law or the sabbath.... can you do it? Or do you think that if you start enough threads about it, that it will change someone's mind? Do you feel its you obligation to pound this theme in every thread you comment on? Just curious cause its clear you are passionate about this one topic.... surely there is more you wish to discuss....

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

StormyOne said:
what's next is how about starting a thread that doesn't deal with the law or the sabbath.... can you do it? Or do you think that if you start enough threads about it, that it will change someone's mind? Do you feel its you obligation to pound this theme in every thread you comment on? Just curious cause its clear you are passionate about this one topic.... surely there is more you wish to discuss....

If your doctor just told you that you have cancer would that cause you to worry about fixing the bent in your car door from the carriage at the shopping center?

The Christian faith does have so much more to offer but if you're sleeping with my wife or molesting children than eventhing else needs to take a back seat.

A side note: I could talk to you about how the Bible is the inspired word of God but I think you would have a problem with that too.

StormyOne · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
If your doctor just told you that you have cancer would that cause you to worry about fixing the bent in your car door from the carriage at the shopping center?

The Christian faith does have so much more to offer but if you're sleeping with my wife or molesting children than eventhing else needs to take a back seat.

A side note: I could talk to you about how the Bible is the inspired word of God but I think you would have a problem with that too.

we can explore why you believe it is.... and I can talk with you about how it is abused and used in a way I am sure God never, ever intended....

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

StormyOne said:
we can explore why you believe it is.... and I can talk with you about how it is abused and used in a way I am sure God never, ever intended....

I only wrote what I wrote for those who are reading this thread and are seeking to know God and want be faithful to His word.

VictorC · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
I only wrote what I wrote for those who are reading this thread and are seeking to know God and want be faithful to His word.

And what you write provides a remarkable service to those reading the forum. God Himself told us that there was no need for anyone to teach another to know Him, as He would perform that task.

"None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Hebrews 8:11)

What you write reveals a tendency to usurp authority God didn't convey to anyone else.

Cribstyl · Jun 20, 2010

Laodicean said:
Except that, in context, this last verse covers a span of time that takes us to the end of time. "Till heaven and earth pass..."

So until such time as when heaven and earth passes away, the law remains in its present written form, every jot and tittle, till all be fulfilled. What is the "all" that will be fulfilled? Not just the keeping of the law (Addo's take on the word, "fulfilled" in verse 17 has no "till" before it, and his interpretation makes sense to me -- thanks Addo) The "all" that will be fulfilled includes the passing away of heaven and earth. That has not happened yet.

Truth is.... "Till heaven and earth pass away" is a reference to the fact that "God will never ever change what's written in His word." It is not saying that the law will never change. Commentaries often isolate words and sentences about the law to contradict clear doctrine.

Verse 17 explains what Christ said. He did not come to destroy what was written in ... The law (Gen-Deut) and the prophets(Joshua-Malachi) ...but to fulfill it....make every word of the Old Testament come true.
Sabbatarians often take verses and apply them to commenatary rather than to understanding within the context written.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What "blows away" your aguments is, if the priesthood changed from the ansestors of Levi then the law did changed. If animal sacrifices are no longer accepted, then the law changed. You cant have it both ways.

The truth is, change was written in the OT. The fact that God promised a new covenant is change you can believe in.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

Cribstyl said:
Truth is.... "Till heaven and earth pass away" is a reference to the fact that "God will never ever change what's written in His word." It is not saying that the law will never change. Commentaries often isolate words and sentences about the law to contradict clear doctrine.

Verse 17 explains what Christ said. He did not come to destroy what was written in ... The law (Gen-Deut) and the prophets(Joshua-Malachi) ...but to fulfill it....make every word of the Old Testament come true.
Sabbatarians often take verses and apply them to commenatary rather than to understanding within the context written.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What "blows away" your aguments is, if the priesthood changed from the ansestors of Levi then the law did changed. If animal sacrifices are no longer accepted, then the law changed. You cant have it both ways.

The truth is, change was written in the OT. The fact that God promised a new covenant is change you can believe in.

Nothing has changed...everything that was said would be done is being done.

We still have the sacrifice for sin, which is Jesus. We still have the Ten Commandments, which are written in the heart. We still have circumcision, which is of the heart and so on and so forth.

Can you explain this verse?

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

How about this one too?

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Cribstyl · Jun 20, 2010

JayBiggS said:
Ah, the topic that seems to have no definitive answer...Do we still keep the Sabbath or not?

I have been back and forth over this many many many times. For me, both sides of the argument have good evidence. And it seems every other week I start to lean more to one side or the other. I have been *trying* to keep the sabbath for almost 2 years or so now regardless of my waffling. I figure its the safest way to go right now.

I pray that one day I will be blessed with the definitive answer, like previous posters seem to have. Not for my salvation but out of a desire to attempt to please Him with obedience out of love.

God's word is clear, complete and final on this matter.Rom 14:5 The problem is how we allow false arguments into the equation.
Does the scriptures say that God rested or does it say that God gave humanity the sabbath at creation? This is where commentary vs God's word begins it argument.

When I first started this wonderful journey with Christ, I was really into people's preaching such as Walter Veith and Doug Batchelor (SDA) and naturally Adventists are very well trained in presenting the case for the Sabbath (no disrespect by the trained remark). Such a good case that I pretty quickly decided that the holy Sabbath was something I needed to immediately start keeping. So I did. Not having any Christian friends or family, let alone a church (Ellen White is suspect, again, just my opinion, no offense) plus my sinful desires to do other things on the sabbath has been a struggle. Add to that the requirements of the sabbath that really are impossible to follow in A: my current circumstance of living quarters and B: what is considered 'doing work' definitely make it difficult in my mind.

Now I have been exposed to the other side of the coin and since the sabbath is so engrained in my life that if I did ever come to the conclusion the sabbath has been done away with, I wouldnt want to let it go. Why wouldnt I want to let it go? Out of fear that it was just my love for self and my sick desire to not keep it. I could see how converting Jews of those days would find it very difficult to stop doing the sabbath, after being raised with it their whole lives (as legalistic as it became, no less).

I DO enjoy the sabbath most times though. It ensures I take time out of my worldly concerns to study the word, worship the Lord, have a break from it all, and enjoy God's creation. I fear if it werent for the Sabbath I may not take much time for those things.

Again, I pray for the answer. If I am indeed commanded to keep the sabbath for a 100% surety, then I will strive to do so to the best of my ability. It is the uncertainty that is getting me. I could go on and on about this but I dont want to derail the thread with my wall of text.,,,,,,

Sound honest.... but God's word does not change.
We need to reset our minds without the commentary of others and you'll see how supernatural God's word is.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

VictorC said:
And what you write provides a remarkable service to those reading the forum. God Himself told us that there was no need for anyone to teach another to know Him, as He would perform that task.

"None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Hebrews 8:11)

What you write reveals a tendency to usurp authority God didn't convey to anyone else.

The more you write the more you reveal you have no clue.

VictorC · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
We still have the Ten Commandments, which are written in the heart.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 both show that the law God wrote into the heart and mind isn't according to the ten commandments, the covenant made at Mount Sinai when God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. Hence you wrote an assertion that you have never provided any support for, and repeating it as often as you do reveals a devotion to a carnal theology that isn't found in Scripture.

k4c said:
The more you write the more you reveal you have no clue.

When tasked for answers supported by Scripture, the typical response you resort to is personal insults and attacks. Argumentum ad hominem is generally employed when others find you clearly contradicting Scripture.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

VictorC said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 both show that the law God wrote into the heart and mind isn't according to the ten commandments, the covenant made at Mount Sinai when God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. Hence you wrote an assertion that you have never provided any support for, and repeating it as often as you do reveals a devotion to a carnal theology that isn't found in Scripture.

When tasked for answers supported by Scripture, the typical response you resort to is personal insults and attacks. Argumentum ad hominem is generally employed when others find you clearly contradicting Scripture.

A covenant has to do with terms agreed upon between two parties. The terms under the old covenant were do or die. The terms under the new covenant are believe and come alive to God, which will lead to a life of oedience.

When the Ten Commandments were written on stone at Sinai it was not the first time they were ever heard of or accountability to them was made known.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

Truth is.... "Till heaven and earth pass away" is a reference to the fact that "God will never ever change what's written in His word." It is not saying that the law will never change. Commentaries often isolate words and sentences about the law to contradict clear doctrine.

Verse 17 explains what Christ said. He did not come to destroy what was written in ... The law (Gen-Deut) and the prophets(Joshua-Malachi) ...but to fulfill it....make every word of the Old Testament come true.
Sabbatarians often take verses and apply them to commenatary rather than to understanding within the context written.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What "blows away" your aguments is, if the priesthood changed from the ansestors of Levi then the law did changed. If animal sacrifices are no longer accepted, then the law changed. You cant have it both ways.

Nothing has changed...everything that was said would be done is being done.

We still have the sacrifice for sin, which is Jesus. We still have the Ten Commandments, which are written in the heart. We still have circumcision, which is of the heart and so on and so forth.

Can you explain this verse?

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

How about this one too?

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Bump...

Kira Light · Jun 20, 2010

So the jots and tittles about the ceremonial stuff did pass away before the earth?

VictorC · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
A covenant has to do with terms agreed upon between two parties. The terms under the old covenant were do or die. The terms under the new covenant are believe and come alive to God, which will lead to a life of oedience.

Adventist scholars writing for Present Truth Magazine have no trouble determining the nature of a Suzerainty covenant, and that while it was jointly agreed on, the content was unilaterally dictated by the Sovereign (God) to the vassal (Israel) who became the Sovereign's possession. What you have replaced the Sinai covenant with is an agreement that has no content. Moses identified the content of the first covenant by use of a proper noun, which you have used so many times you have forgotten what it refers to.

Deuteronomy 4
1 ¶ "Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you.
2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
3 "Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal Peor; for the LORD your God has destroyed from among you all the men who followed Baal of Peor.
4 "But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you.
5 "Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6 "Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, `Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'
7 "For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8 "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?
9 "Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren,
10 "especially concerning the day you stood before the LORD your God in Horeb, when the LORD said to me, `Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'
11 "Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.
12 "And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice.
13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
14 "And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

The agreement you allude to was to abide by the commandments dictated by the Sovereign to His vassal, and the obedience to the covenant itself was conditional to 1) live, and 2) possess the land. The content of that covenant dictated at Mount Sinai was known by the proper noun Moses used: the Ten Commandments.

k4c said:
When the Ten Commandments were written on stone at Sinai it was not the first time they were ever heard of or accountability to them was made known.

Distinguishing between the time the covenant was spoken at Mount Sinai (Exodus 20) and written onto tables of stone (Exodus 31:18) at Mount Sinai doesn't change the content of that covenant. It does not deter from the point I made to you:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 both show that the law God wrote into the heart and mind isn't according to the ten commandments, the covenant made at Mount Sinai when God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. Hence you wrote an assertion that you have never provided any support for, and repeating it as often as you do reveals a devotion to a carnal theology that isn't found in Scripture.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

VictorC said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 both show that the law God wrote into the heart and mind isn't according to the ten commandments, the covenant made at Mount Sinai when God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. Hence you wrote an assertion that you have never provided any support for, and repeating it as often as you do reveals a devotion to a carnal theology that isn't found in Scripture.

Not according to dozens of New Testament verses.

VictorC · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
Not according to dozens of New Testament verses.

This response affirms that you have no defense for the verses cited (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12), and you have never offered anything from Scripture that suggests the ten commandments was ever written into anyone. The one attempt you have made in the past was from Romans 2:15, and it was actually me who pointed out that this verse was proof the law ordained at Mount Sinai was not a new covenant promise, since the workings of the law written into the Gentiles predated the time God accepted them in a new covenant relationship. You openly conceded Romans 2:15 referred to the ten commandments, and demonstrated the point I showed you was accurate.

This conclusion leaves you holding an empty bag, still repeating a claim that you have never found any Scriptural support for, and no answers for Scripture concluding the very opposite of your claim.

k4c · Jun 20, 2010

VictorC said:
This response affirms that you have no defense for the verses cited (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12), and you have never offered anything from Scripture that suggests the ten commandments was ever written into anyone. The one attempt you have made in the past was from Romans 2:15, and it was actually me who pointed out that this verse was proof the law ordained at Mount Sinai was not a new covenant promise, since the workings of the law written into the Gentiles predated the time God accepted them in a new covenant relationship. You openly conceded Romans 2:15 referred to the ten commandments, and demonstrated the point I showed you was accurate.

This conclusion leaves you holding an empty bag, still repeating a claim that you have never found any Scriptural support for, and no answers for Scripture concluding the very opposite of your claim.

You're right, you caught me, I'm a false prophet.

VictorC · Jun 20, 2010

k4c said:
You're right, you caught me, I'm a false prophet.

It isn't my goal to "catch" you. It is my goal to drive you to a complete dependence on what Scripture tells us. Such a dependence causes us to re-evaluate the things that we have such an investment in that we want very badly for them to be true. That re-evaluation is part of the process of learning to sift speculation from fact.

If you want to be under the Law, don't keep the Sabbath.

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