If you say that the elect

[dogs4thewin]

will go to Heaven no matter what does that mean they will not recant directly OR indirectly (indirectly being through repeated willful sin and directly being by outright denying Christ? It says that if you claim Him before men He will claim you before the Father. Recant means that you believed and then under pressure or just because you did not want to live a holy life you stopped following Him. I see Calvinism as saying it does not matter how you act because you are chosen and will be going to Heaven anyway.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

will go to Heaven no matter what does that mean they will not recant directly OR indirectly (indirectly being through repeated willful sin and directly being by outright denying Christ? It says that if you claim Him before men He will claim you before the Father. Recant means that you believed and then under pressure or just because you did not want to live a holy life you stopped following Him. I see Calvinism as saying it does not matter how you act because you are chosen and will be going to Heaven anyway.

That isn't a Christian; that's a wanna be.

 

[dogs4thewin]

What people who recant, but then how do we know we are Christians? I can recant in two second flat.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

What people who recant, but then how do we know we are Christians? I can recant in two second flat.

Then your a wanna be Christian. Sorry, no offense.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Then your a wanna be Christian. Sorry, no offense.

no I meant that just verbally not that I would but ANYONE could form those words in his or her mouth in seconds.

 

[iambren]

As a Calvinist this is how I see it:

Imagine you're a horse. God gives you the grace to be reborn into a fish. Your NATURE is now changed permanently to being a fish. You swim delightedly in the pond until one day you see something glitter on the bank. So you flop out on the bank and YUCK, the air feels so unnatural, you can't breath so fish flop about to get back to their element they were made for.

Sure the Elect sin but it's not natural to them anymore. IF they go on sinning or "recant" they never truly were a fish.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

As a Calvinist this is how I see it:

Imagine you're a horse. God gives you the grace to be reborn into a fish. Your NATURE is now changed permanently to being a fish. You swim delightedly in the pond until one day you see something glitter on the bank. So you flop out on the bank and YUCK, the air feels so unnatural, you can't breath so fish flop about to get back to their element they were made for.

Sure the Elect sin but it's not natural to them anymore. IF they go on sinning or "recant" they never truly were a fish.

Nicely said.

 

[dogs4thewin]

As a Calvinist this is how I see it:

Imagine you're a horse. God gives you the grace to be reborn into a fish. Your NATURE is now changed permanently to being a fish. You swim delightedly in the pond until one day you see something glitter on the bank. So you flop out on the bank and YUCK, the air feels so unnatural, you can't breath so fish flop about to get back to their element they were made for.

Sure the Elect sin but it's not natural to them anymore. IF they go on sinning or "recant" they never truly were a fish.

so an elect can't decide they do not want to be saved?

 

[toolmanjantzi]

They can do what they want, but if their elect they will be chastened accordingly.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

so an elect can't decide they do not want to be saved?

If you are elect, and have been regenerated, you will not want to go back. Period. End of story.

Just because a person is one of the elect does not necessarily mean they are regenerated...yet. They will be, before they die. But before they are regenerated, they are still dead in their sins and ruled by their sin nature, just like everyone else.

I think some of the elect might flip-flop before they actually see regeneration. Somebody who is elect might say 'the sinner's prayer' and go to church for a while, then backslide back into their old lifestyle. I would say that is a pretty good indication they have not actually been regenerated yet.

At some point in their lives, they are regenerated, truely repent, and never look back. They no longer want to.

I think this is why it's important to never write anybody off as one somebody who will never come to Christ.

But...it sounds to me like someone is worrying too much about knowing for sure who the elect are. There's no need for the angst. Repent and believe. Live for God and don't worry about it.

 

[twin1954]

will go to Heaven no matter what

That is hyper-Calvininsm and is just as much a lie as free will works religion. Election isn't salvation. Let me say it again so you don't miss it. Election isn't salvation. Election is unto salvation. 2Thess 2:13 Because of God's electing love all that He chose will come to faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ in the power of the Spirit. There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Rom. 10:14,15. Salvation isn't a thing we gain it is a Person we trust. Christ Jesus the Lord is the object of faith.

does that mean they will not recant directly OR indirectly (indirectly being through repeated willful sin and directly being by outright denying Christ? It says that if you claim Him before men He will claim you before the Father. Recant means that you believed and then under pressure or just because you did not want to live a holy life you stopped following Him. I see Calvinism as saying it does not matter how you act because you are chosen and will be going to Heaven anyway.

The rest of this question (or statement) is invalid because it is based on the previous false assumption. All believers (the elect) falter and fall many times a day. In fact everything we do is mixed with sin. That is why we cannot rely on ourselves and must rely totally on Christ alone. Our salvation depends on Him not on us. Every sin is a product of unbelief and unbelief is at its root a denial of Christ. If we believed as we ought to we would never sin. Believers are sinners still in this body of death called the flesh. But united to Christ by faith we are new creations in Him that are partakers of the Divine nature and can never cease being believers.

 

[Keachian]

Part of their being the elect is a realisation of their sin and repentance of said sin, this is a part of the regeneration pricess

 

[dogs4thewin]

They can do what they want, but if their elect they will be chastened accordingly.

Do what?

 

[iambren]

God will spank His kids.

 

[dogs4thewin]

God will spank His kids.

but they still do HAVE to obey?

 

[bsd058]

but they still do HAVE to obey?

Depends on what you mean by "have to."

If you mean "required to" then yes, they are still expected to obey Christ's commands. In fact those who continue to live in sin should question whether or not they have Jesus Christ (Salvation) to begin with.

If you mean "a necessary pre-condition of salvation" then no. God saves them while they are still sinners, and makes them a new creation, which causes them to produce good works.

If you mean "a necessary consequence of salvation" then yes. A believer will necessarily begin to produce good works. These are the fruits of the Spirit in their life and are evidence of a new nature. They have become a new creation.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Depends on what you mean by "have to."

If you mean "required to" then yes, they are still expected to obey Christ's commands. In fact those who continue to live in sin should question whether or not they have Jesus Christ (Salvation) to begin with.

If you mean "a necessary pre-condition of salvation" then no. God saves them while they are still sinners, and makes them a new creation, which causes them to produce good works.

If you mean "a necessary consequence of salvation" then yes. A believer will necessarily begin to produce good works. These are the fruits of the Spirit in their life and are evidence of a new nature. They have become a new creation.

I mean that God MAKES them do it.

 

[bsd058]

I mean that God MAKES them do it.

Technically God has control over everything. If you mean "make" in this sense, then yes. But if you mean "make" in the sense of causing them against their will to obey, then no.


If however by "make" you mean that the only good in us is as a result of God working in us to do His good pleasure (Phillipians 2:13) then yes. He makes them a new creation, and they naturally want to obey Him now.

They used to be His enemy. But God makes them his children.

I'm out for the night. Have a great Valentine's Day everyone! I'm apart from my wife this year. Hopefully we'll be together next year! Pray for us!

 

[Shulamite]

An elect child of God will have a new nature, which God gives them. The elect are BORN literally of God's own Spirit. Once you are born again of God's Spirit (Of His flesh and of His bone) He said, "I will put My Spirit IN you and cause you to follow My decrees" Ezekiel 36:27

As a new creature, born of God, and His Spirit living In you, it's Him moving you to obey. In your old fallen nature, you could never choose to obey. It's all God's work in you for even obeying. He gets the credit so none can boast.

Yes, a calvinist (as I am) sins, falls short of God's glory and stumbles, but will NOT stop loving the Lord or desiring His will. He makes His desire become our desire. We are ONE with Him in Spirit and therefore desire to obey Him, we don't feel forced. Obeying Him and loving Him becomes natural to our new nature. If God's child sins, we will feel immediate conviction over that sin and be disciplined for that sin. Just because there is no condemnation in Christ, does not mean we are to abuse His grace and keep sinning. In fact, if we keep living a life of sin without caring or it doesn't matter to us if we grieve the Spirit, then are we truly regenerate?

If you hurt Him with your sin, He'll show you and you will KNOW it and not want to hurt Him anymore. It's all about a new nature which God chose to give you when He chose to elect you.

 

[Skala]

will go to Heaven no matter what does that mean they will not recant directly OR indirectly (indirectly being through repeated willful sin and directly being by outright denying Christ? It says that if you claim Him before men He will claim you before the Father. Recant means that you believed and then under pressure or just because you did not want to live a holy life you stopped following Him. I see Calvinism as saying it does not matter how you act because you are chosen and will be going to Heaven anyway.

Then you see Calvinism wrongly.

Calvinism doesn't teach that the elect will go to heaven "no matter what".

It teaches that God uses the gospel to bring His elect to a saving knowledge of Christ and bring them to faith and repentance.

Thus, all of the elect repent and believe. They don't remain in unbelief and rebellion.

I hope this cleared up your misunderstanding of Calvinism.