If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

bugkiller · Aug 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
Galatians 3:23-26
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. rsv

Christians are under the law of Jesus Christ given to all mankind AND then later written on stone at Sinai by Christ Himself according to Heb 8:6-10. (hint: your own denomination admits that the TEN Commandments are and have always been - for all mankind)

The term "Under the LAW" is defined in Romans 3:19-21 as under the "Condemnation of the LAW" as sinners who are not yet covered by the Gospel having not yet come to faith in Christ. But once we come to faith in Christ we are no longer under the sentence of hell - but rather are born-again saints with the LAW of God written on the heart.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I don't believe you can cause me to believe you accept and believe rom 3:19-21 as written. Then you want to know and wonder/marvel why I don't wish to do a Bible study with you at your direction.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2016

Jan001 said:
Hebrews 8:6-10 does not state anything specific about the Ten Commandments. This particular passage pertains to the whole first covenant law of Moses.

Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

Hebrews 8:6-10
quoting Jer 31:31-3

Hebrews 8:1-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Better Ministry
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by or faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Romans 7

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Conflict of Two Natures
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

bugkiller said:
Then you do really endorse Heb 7:12

Indeed I do believe Hebrew 7:12

It is where we find out that the law regarding priesthood changes - because that is the only way Christ can be the Hebrews 8:1 High Priest - who is not at all descended from Levi - just as Hebrews 7 points out.

Hebrews 7
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests

Are you just bringing this up for misdirection or were you really thinking that Christ was a Levite??

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2016

Galatians 3:23-26
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. rsv

Christians are under the law of Jesus Christ given to all mankind AND then later written on stone at Sinai by Christ Himself according to Heb 8:6-10. (hint: your own denomination admits that the TEN Commandments are and have always been - for all mankind)

The term "Under the LAW" is defined in Romans 3:19-21 as under the "Condemnation of the LAW" as sinners who are not yet covered by the Gospel having not yet come to faith in Christ. But once we come to faith in Christ we are no longer under the sentence of hell - but rather are born-again saints with the LAW of God written on the heart.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

bugkiller said:
I don't believe you can cause me to believe

whahuh??? "I don't believe you can cause me to believe.." ????

bugkiller said:
...you accept and believe rom 3:19-21 as written. Then you want to know and wonder/marvel why I don't wish to do a Bible study ...

You are free to do whatever you like... I am not forcing you to post.

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2016

Jan001 said:
Hebrews 8:6-10 does not state anything specific about the Ten Commandments. This particular passage pertains to the whole first covenant law of Moses.

Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

Hebrews 8:6-10
quoting Jer 31:31-3

Hebrews 8:1-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Better Ministry
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by or faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Romans 7

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Conflict of Two Natures
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

bugkiller said:
Both of these statements are false.No because the Scripture plainly says "new" r

You are free to imagine whatever you wish...

I will be sticking with this --

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

bugkiller · Aug 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
Galatians 3:23-26
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. rsv

Christians are under the law of Jesus Christ given to all mankind AND then later written on stone at Sinai by Christ Himself according to Heb 8:6-10. (hint: your own denomination admits that the TEN Commandments are and have always been - for all mankind)

Bob, do you pay attention to anything? What denomination are you talking about? The law of Jesus Christ was not written in stone - Jn 1:17

The term "Under the LAW" is defined in Romans 3:19-21 as under the "Condemnation of the LAW" as sinners who are not yet covered by the Gospel having not yet come to faith in Christ. But once we come to faith in Christ we are no longer under the sentence of hell - but rather are born-again saints with the LAW of God written on the heart.

Bob you are not reading my posts.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

You and John are talking about different sets of commandments.

whahuh??? "I don't believe you can cause me to believe.." ????
You are free to do whatever you like... I am not forcing you to post.

Yep cut my sentence in parts so you can make it look like something it doesn't. You do it quite a lot.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Aug 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

Hebrews 8:6-10
quoting Jer 31:31-3

Hebrews 8:1-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Better Ministry
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by or faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Romans 7

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Conflict of Two Natures
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

You are free to imagine whatever you wish...

I will be sticking with this --

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

It would be very nice of you to reference what I replied to instead of making it look like I don't believe God's Word, the Bible.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2016

BABerean2 said:
You fail to admit that the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham

.

Was there ever a time - OT or NT - when taking God's name in vain was "just fine -- go ahead... do it"???

Genesis 26:"5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Gal 1:6-9 - there is only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:7 the Gospel was preached to Abraham

Where there is no Law -- there is no sin. Romans 4.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The Law was not written on stone - until 430 years after Abraham.

NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind"
NEW Covenant Heb 8:6-10 "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind"

BABerean2 said:
Was it before October 22, 1844 ?
Was the Door shut or open?
Did Ellen G. White debunk it?

Shut Door Documents from the estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

.

Earth to BABeran2 -- feel free to join the conversation

Jan001 said:
What gospel (Galatians 1:6-9, 3:7) did God preach to Abraham?

The Gospel preached to Abraham
John 8 'Abraham SAW MY DAY and was glad" --

Gal 1:6-9 - there is only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:7 the Gospel was preached to Abraham

1 Peter 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

God certainly did not preach the same exact Ten Commandments of the law of Moses to Abraham

I guess we have "YOUR word" for that. Not God's

I prefer the Bible "instead".

Genesis 26:"5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

klutedavid said:
Hello Bob.

In ten lines or less, can you explain what you think the Gospel is?

If you said that you have heard the Gospel, what information comprises
the Gospel?

The Gospel is the "good news" -

John 3:16 the "good news" of sins forgiven - 1 John 2:2 NIV - Isaiah 53
Romans 6: ALL -- the "good news" of freedom from slavery to sin

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

The good news of a New Heavens and a New Earth - Revelation 21:1-5 Is 66:23

The good news of the Rev 14:6,7 - Romans 2:13-16 future judgment. Daniel 7

The "Good news preached to us just as it was to them also" Hebrews 4:1-2

Travis93 · Aug 29, 2016

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that the law was just the ten commandments.
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2016

Travis93 said:
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that the law was just the ten commandments.
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

The Ten Commandments are the Sinai covenant.

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The Law of Christ

Travis93 · Aug 30, 2016

BABerean2 said:
Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

.

I said "just" the ten commandments. There are hundreds of them, the ten are just the base. I'm opposing the stance that only the ten matter. For instance, this isn't part of the ten.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Deuteronomy 10:20 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

Bob S · Aug 30, 2016

Yes and Torah WAS written for the benefit of Israel only. Israel as instituted by God no longer exists. The laws pertaining to Israel only are defunct. Those who insist that everyone should observe ritual commands given to a now defunct nation are barking up the wrong tree. Morality is forever.

Jan001 · Aug 30, 2016

BobRyan said:
Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

I've told you many times, my Church does not keep the sabbath day. Our own Ten Commandments are for all mankind, not the Ten Commandments of the Israelites given to them in the desert.

We keep the Lord's day holy because Jesus taught His apostles to do this after He rose from the dead. This fact is written in the historical record of the early church. The Bible also records that the Christians met together to worship on the first day of the week. The Bible records, that on the first day of the week of every week, money was gathered from the people at these worship services for the support of the brethren elsewhere.

The commandments of the law/covenant of Jesus Christ are not like the Sabbath commandments of the law/covenant of Moses. Greek Christians did not keep the sabbath. God never commanded the Greeks/Gentiles to keep the sabbath.

The sabbath law was required under the Levitical priesthood of the Israelites because this sabbath law was a special sign that He gave specifically to them. This sign is not required under the Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Jesus' new covenant is not like the first covenant. In His new covenant there is no distinction between Jews and Greeks. His followers are all one Body in Christ Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Jesus' new covenant. Exodus 31:15-17, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11

Hebrews 8:9-10
“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
for they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

Christ's new commandment/law of His new covenant is that we must love one another like He has loved us. If we call Him Lord, we must do what He tells us to do.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. rsv

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

There is absolutely no commandment recorded in the NT Bible for Christians to keep the sabbath of the Israelites/Jews. Our new covenant with God is not like the first covenant that God made with the Israelites in the desert. That covenant is no longer in force. It is no longer used. It is obsolete and it passed away almost 2000 years ago.

Hebrews 8:9a
“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers...rsv

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv

Commandments for Christians:

Romans 13:4-10
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law (of Jesus Christ). 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law (of Jesus Christ). rsv

Love is the fulfilling of the law/new covenant of Jesus Christ. The old covenant was made obsolete about 2000 years ago.

I can think of nothing else to add to this topic.

Jan001 · Aug 30, 2016

BABerean2 said:
We are all trying to get back to the New Covenant Church of Christ, which understands the original teachings of the Apostles of Christ.

We are battling the Judaisers, just as the Apostles Paul and Peter did.

The Sabbath is really very simple, if we take the text of Colossians 2:16-17 at face value.

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The dietary laws, the festivals, new moons, and Sabbath are a shadow of the real thing.

That real thing is the Son of God.

The Christian's Sabbath has a name. It is not Saturday and it is not Sunday. It is the Son of God.

Those indwelled by His Spirit have the Lord of the Sabbath inside of them every day of the week.

1Co_3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1Co_3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1Co_6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

A building does not become a church, until a believer indwelled with God's Spirit walks into it.

Thank you so much for speaking the truth in love.

.

I enjoy your posts. Thank you.

Matthew 11:28
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. rsv

I do think that the weekly worship gathering on the first day of the week was required for Christians.

Hebrews 10:23-27
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. rsv

Jan001 · Aug 30, 2016

Bob S said:
Yes and Torah WAS written for the benefit of Israel only. Israel as instituted by God no longer exists. The laws pertaining to Israel only are defunct. Those who insist that everyone should observe ritual commands given to a now defunct nation are barking up the wrong tree. Morality is forever.

Yes!

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2016

Jan001 said:
I do think that the weekly worship gathering on the first day of the week was required for Christians.

Maybe a better way to look at it is an opportunity to meet and worship with others in the Body, rather than a requirement not found in scripture.

This would match better the text of Colossians 2:16-17.

My wife and I meet with other believers on Sunday morning and Wednesday night.
We view both of them as the same opportunity to share with those we love.

Remember that a building is not a church.
It only becomes a church when a believer walks into the building.

1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 30, 2016

Bob S said:
Yes and Torah WAS written for the benefit of Israel only. Israel as instituted by God no longer exists. The laws pertaining to Israel only are defunct.
Those who insist that everyone should observe ritual commands given to a now defunct nation are barking up the wrong tree. Morality is forever.

There are some here who will probably agree.
The non-Christian Jews of today must come to the Cross and Faith of Jesus, as do Muslims, Hindus, and all religions and non-religions.

Gal 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[fn]),

Here is an interesting thread concerning the Israel of the "flesh" today:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/national-israel-is-cursed-forever.7459656/
National Israel is cursed forever!

Mk 11:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find any thing thereon:
and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever." And his disciples heard it.

The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representive of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..
Romans 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..

rom 9:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her seperated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed for the seed of abraham..

Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God is riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostacy, however, God tolerated her existence up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..

After the death of christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life:
acts 13:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said "It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye reject it and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, Behold! we turn to the Gentiles/Nations."

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving israel, the etnic jews under His Judgement..

This is confirmed too in matt 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favoured position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfieted, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:
ecc 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

.

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2016

LittleLambofJesus said:
There are some here who will probably agree.
The non-Christian Jews of today must come to the Cross and Faith of Jesus, as do Muslims, Hindus, and all religions and non-religions.

Gal 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[fn]),

Here is an interesting thread concerning the Israel of the "flesh" today:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/national-israel-is-cursed-forever.7459656/
National Israel is cursed forever!

Mk 11:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find any thing thereon:
and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever." And his disciples heard it.

The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representive of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..
Romans 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..

rom 9:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her seperated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed for the seed of abraham..

Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God is riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostacy, however, God tolerated her existence up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..

After the death of christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life:
acts 13:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said "It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye reject it and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, Behold! we turn to the Gentiles/Nations."

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving israel, the etnic jews under His Judgement..

This is confirmed too in matt 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favoured position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfieted, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:
ecc 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

.

I have come to understand that the modern State of Israel is made up of individuals just as all nations are. Based on Romans chapter 11, God has not rejected the individual descendants of Jacob who accept Christ.

However, the government of that nation is just as corrupt as the United States.

Sadly, some modern evangelicals have come to worship the nation as an idol.
They have changed the reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 into all of his descendants and or the modern State of Israel.
They ignore Galatians 3:16, 29, because it does not fit their doctrine.

Most of the Baptists here in the southern U. S. are so stepped in John Darby's doctrine that it is all some of them have ever heard.

They keep telling me that God's plan did not work out correctly because the Jews 2,000 years ago did not accept Christ as their Messiah and therefore God had to go to Plan B. Maybe they have never read Genesis 3:15. They say God will go back to dealing with the nation of Israel during a future 70th week of Daniel, after the pretrib rapture of the Church. They also say God will go back to the Old Covenant during this time period. Many of them worship the modern State of Israel, established by the United Nations in 1948.

If I told you the truth about this doctrine, they might throw me off of this forum...

Anyone who thinks God is going back to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old covenant, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ needs to read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13.

Revelation 12:11 exposes this doctrine for what it is. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.

BobRyan · Aug 30, 2016

Jan001 said:
Hebrews 8:6-10 does not state anything specific about the Ten Commandments. This particular passage pertains to the whole first covenant law of Moses.

Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

Hebrews 8:6-10
quoting Jer 31:31-3

Hebrews 8:1-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Better Ministry
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by or faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Romans 7

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Conflict of Two Natures
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Jan001 said:
I've told you many times, my Church does not keep the sabbath day. Our own Ten Commandments are for all mankind,

"Your own Ten Commandments"??? are for me????. You make stuff up then I am obligated??? This is the first time you have ever mentioned this.

Since you can do whatever you wish with your own denomination - it should be pretty easy for you to print some sort of ten-commandment-denying statement by your own church. Something that shows them condemning the Commandments of God at Sinai - no too difficult given your statements about that so far.

So we all look forward to such a published reference or quote from your own church saying what you believe. This is not at all a challenge of any sort - since all of us can do it, in the case of our own statements and our own churches.

Please provide the reference.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Aug 30, 2016

Jan001 said:
Christ's new commandment/law of His new covenant is that we must love one another like He has loved us.

Like this?

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.

===============================================

So then here is the answer to our OP question -- what are included in "God's Commandments" in the following examples??

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping God's Commandments" --

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

The answer is easy -- when one does not dismiss Bible details.

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

And of course - Bible details matter.

Jan001 · Aug 30, 2016

BABerean2 said:
Maybe a better way to look at it is an opportunity to meet and worship with others in the Body, rather than a requirement not found in scripture.

This would match better the text of Colossians 2:16-17.

My wife and I meet with other believers on Sunday morning and Wednesday night.
We view both of them as the same opportunity to share with those we love.

Remember that a building is not a church.
It only becomes a church when a believer walks into the building.

1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

.

I think we should all follow our consciences. God will meet with each of us today wherever we are today in our spiritual life. I have found, though, that it is not God's desire to let any of us remain where He first met us, or where He met us today!

We are indeed temples of the Holy Spirit. The Church is the Body of Christ. Many members of the Church do meet weekly in buildings called churches.

Not all requirements for Christians are found in Scripture. Jesus commanded the apostles to preach the gospel and to oversee His flock.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. rsv

Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. rsv

Hebrews 13:7, 17
Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith. ..... Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Jesus did command John to write down what he saw in his visions and also to write specific letters to specific churches, and we now call these things that John wrote down, the Book of Revelation.

The Scriptures were written as supplements to the apostles'/disciples' preaching. The Scriptures were not written to replace the oral teachings/preaching of the leaders of Christ's Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15
To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. rsv

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. rsv

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. rsv

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv

It is difficult to figure out the true gospel of Jesus Christ from simply reading the Scriptures. Many things are difficult to understand. That is why there are thousands upon thousands of different denominations teaching conflicting doctrines. They all call themselves Christians, followers of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

They sincerely believe that their own interpretations of the Scriptures is the exact same gospel that the apostles preached. They don't realize that their own personal interpretations may not actually be the true gospel. Many believe that the Holy Spirit guided them into their beliefs and therefore they are not relying upon their own understanding/interpretations. They are mistaken. The Holy Spirit does not teach conflicting doctrines.

This confusion about what comprises the true gospel of Jesus Christ is not what Jesus wanted for His Church John 17:20-22 and that is why He appointed its first leaders Matthew 16:17-19, Ephesians 2:19-21 and that is why He still appoints its leaders through apostolic succession. Acts 1:25-26, 2 Timothy 2:2, Titus 1:7

2 Peter 3:16
He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. rsv

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. rsv

Paul complains about the Judaizers who are perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Judaizers are teaching the Greeks that they must be circumcised and follow the law of Moses, and the Judaizers' teaching is definitely not the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:6-7
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. rsv

The false teachings of other members in the Church including the Nicolaitans in the Church at Pergamum was another big challenge for the apostles and their successor bishops. Acts 20:28-31, Revelation 2:12-17

If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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