If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

BukiRob · Aug 7, 2016

Jan001 said:
Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses. Do you you know what "fulfill" means?

Matthew 5:17
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. rsv

Luke 4:21
And he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” rsv

FULFILL
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil

Are you an unbeliever in Jesus Christ? Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus Christ, but they do follow the Law of Moses as you most likely do also.

As for me, I am not under the Law (of Moses). I am under the Law of Liberty/grace of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. rsv

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. rsv

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. rsv

James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. rsv

Jan,
It is you who does not know what fulfill here means.

The greek is Pleroo.

Strong's: universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment":Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f http://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The used of Fulfill here is EXACTLY as strong's defines it. To OBEY the law as it should be. You and many others try and FORCE it to mean something that makes Yeshua's words turn into gibberish.

He is VERY clear here. You are trying to have messiah say " I did not come to abolish the law but to abolish it.....

He is saying I did not come to abolish the law but to cause God's will as made known in the torah to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises which were given through the prophets to receive fulfilment

THIS is the gospel message concerning the Torah. How is it that you COMPLETELY ignore what we are told in 1st John? That we are to "WALK AS HE WALKED" How do you simply white wash that away??????

BukiRob · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
What if I do like some folks in Romans 14, and I see every day as alike? I mean, what exactly did the Lord teach about Sabbath? He taught that is ok to do good on Sabbath. Therefore, if I can help my neighbor with some work on Sabbath, then that's ok right? A man is worth more that a sheep right? Also, if I can help my neighbor then surely I can help my own family too, and if I need to work on Sabbath to feed them then that's ok too right?

Isn't it the filthy love of money that God truly hates? If a man is working on Sabbath, or any other day for that matter, just to get rich, then isn't he missing the whole point of the Gospel doctrine?

If we truly observe Sabbath how the Lord did it in the scriptures then how can we go wrong? However this should be done every day shouldn't it? Why can I do good on one day but not another? Why should i cease from getting rich on one day but not another?

I see it this way, if we follow pauls example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.

Show me the error in my logic here, if you can

Yeshua's example of doing good were things like healing the sick. On one occasion Yeshua asks the pharisee's by saying And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?"

The masters examples are concerning sabbath are that were to focus that day on spending it with the Father and our families and to not engage in true work. What is true work? LABOR.

So is mowing your lawn or tinkering around in your garden work? For some sure... for others its the exact opposite.... I believe that is an issue you work out with the Father and obey.

The key to all of this is to AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE of " doing what is right in your own eyes" Because in every place in scripture that is revealed as EVIL. G-d himself outlines HOW we are to walk and what is and more importantly what is NOT walking upright. That is why reading scripture particularly the OT is so very, very important.
I think one needs to be very, very careful with the teachings of Paul because they are EASILY misunderstood and OFTEN taken completely out of the context in which he communicates them. We have 2 clear examples of this. Many people (as seen in Acts) believe Paul was teaching Jews not to be circumcised and that he was teaching against Moses. This is NOT TRUE. Again Peter warns that Paul's writings are....as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul was taught at the feet of Gamaliel a pharisee teacher who was and is considered a giant among pharisee sages. In order to even be accepted by him, you had to have memorized vast amounts of the torah. Paul should be looked at as a leading Phd when it comes to how he communicates concepts of the gospel as it relates to the Torah. Paul kept the feast days and observed the Sabbath. Much of the modern church's doctrinal error stems from a perversion of what Paul is actually teaching.

BukiRob · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Psalms 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Psalms 119:151 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth.
Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Amen. The word (TORAH) became flesh and dwelt among us.....

Travis93 · Aug 7, 2016

BukiRob said:
Amen. The word (TORAH) became flesh and dwelt among us.....

I remember being stumped by Paul's quote of Dueteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10:6-8 when he said it was referring to Jesus until I came to understand "the word" refers to Torah.
Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So the original meaning was simply that the law wasn't impossible to follow, but now that the word made flesh has been revealed it means it's not too hard to follow and imitate Jesus who is our example. That is the faith we preach according to Paul (Romans 10:8).

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

W2L · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
I remember being stumped by Paul's quote of Dueteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10:6-8 when he said it was referring to Jesus until I came to understand "the word" refers to Torah.
Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So the original meaning was simply that the law wasn't impossible to follow, but now that the word made flesh has been revealed it means it's not too hard to follow and imitate Jesus who is our example. That is the faith we preach according to Paul (Romans 10:8).

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

How does a Baptist observe Sabbath? On what day do they observe it, and what OT Sabbath restrictions do they observe?

Travis93 · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
How does a Baptist observe Sabbath? On what day do they observe it, and what OT Sabbath restrictions do they observe?

They usually just go to church on Sunday, and observe no restrictions. The true sabbath however is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, without any work or commerce. I chose the Baptist label just because that's the church I grew up in before reading the Bible for myself (I was a Christian in name only who just listened to the preacher every Sunday and never bother to learn the Bible on my own). I no longer align myself with their teaching, but I don't think I'm able to change the label.

W2L · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
They usually just go to church on Sunday, and observe no restrictions. The true sabbath however is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, without any work or commerce. I chose the Baptist label just because that's the church I grew up in before reading the Bible for myself (I was a Christian in name only who just listened to the preacher every Sunday and never bother to learn the Bible on my own). I no longer align myself with their teaching, but I don't think I'm able to change the label.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Bob S · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
Thanks for clearing that up.

Yep, clear as mud.

Bob S · Aug 7, 2016

BukiRob said:
Jan,
It is you who does not know what fulfill here means.

The greek is Pleroo.

Strong's: universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment":Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f http://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Yep, Jesus obeyed the law as it should have been obeyed. He accomplished what Israel failed ever to do. His final accomplishment was to die on the Cross and shed His blood ratifying the New Covenant. "Until all is accomplished" the law (Torah) was in effect. Jesus accomplished all He came to do and the law passed away. It is history. It has been replaced by the new and better covenant, the one that endures, the one that does not require a whole nation to obey. The new one is a contract with each individual that lives on this Earth

The used of Fulfill here is EXACTLY as strong's defines it. To OBEY the law as it should be. You and many others try and FORCE it to mean something that makes Yeshua's words turn into gibberish.

And you try to make (force) the covenant given only to Israel fit Christians. Both are wrong. Jesus is the only one who ever obeyed the law as it should be. Everyone else who is trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps are only fooling themselves.

He is VERY clear here. You are trying to have messiah say " I did not come to abolish the law but to abolish it.....

Jesus didn't have to abolish the law, Israel did it on their own.

He is saying I did not come to abolish the law but to cause God's will as made known in the torah to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises which were given through the prophets to receive fulfilment

That is not in the least way true. That is what you would like for Him to have said.

THIS is the gospel message concerning the Torah. How is it that you COMPLETELY ignore what we are told in 1st John? That we are to "WALK AS HE WALKED" How do you simply white wash that away??????

1Jn:3 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Would John lie to us? If we were to observe Torah surely John would not have written what he did. It would have gone something like: This is His command, observe the whole law given to Israel by God at Sinai.

Jan001 · Aug 7, 2016

BukiRob said:
.....You have such a flawed understanding of what is going on in Acts 15 which is where 100% of this doctrine comes from. I've pointed out countless times that 99% of people try and force something in there that IS NOT HAPPENING. Acts 15:1 tells us what the debate that gentiles to day falsely teach Torah done away with.

What exactly do you believe Torah to be?

Jan001 · Aug 7, 2016

BobRyan said:
......
Hebrews 8:6-10 says Jesus was the one speaking the TEN Commandments

Hebrews 8:6-10
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
for they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. rsv

This passage is not speaking of the Ten Commandments. This passage is speaking of these commandments/laws of God:

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv

The Israelites' Sabbath law and its requirements are not binding on Christians. A Christian will inherit eternal life if he loves the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his strength, and with all his mind; and his neighbor as himself.

Travis93 · Aug 7, 2016

Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:151), and the life (Proverbs 13:14). It is light (Psalms 119:105), liberty (Psalms 119:45), everlasting (Psalms 119:142), good (Psalms 119:39), sweet (Psalms 119:103), righteousness (Psalms 119:40), a delight (Psalms 119:47), good doctrine (Proverbs 4:2), God's word (Psalms 119:172), endures forever (Psalms 119:160), perfect and coverts the soul (Psalms 19:7), makes you wise (Psalms 19:8), clean (Psalms 19:9), more desirable than gold or honey (Psalms 19:10), and are for ever (Psalms 111:9). It is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13), how we show our love for God (Exodus 20:6), something we should remember (Malachi 4:4). Those without the law have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20), are a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5), and his prayer are an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

Whoever does and teaches the law will be great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), faith does not void it (Romans 3:31), it is holy just and good (Romans 7:12), and is a delight to the believer (Romans 7:22). We know Jesus kept it, and we are to walk as he did (1 John 2:6), be conformed to his image (Romans 8:29), and follow his example of not sinning (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Jan001 · Aug 7, 2016

BobRyan said:
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Your opposition to the teaching of Christ in Mark 7 "noted".

But not all Christians will choose to be at war against the teaching of Christ as Paul points out in Romans 8:4-9

I do not oppose the teaching of Christ in Mark 7. I do understand the teaching Of Christ much differently than you do!

Jan001 · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
The law of liberty you mention. This fits right into my post here::

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...my-commandments.7913355/page-63#post-69951590

James refers to the law of liberty and seems to suggest it is about loving others as our self. Jesus observed Sabbath by doing good deeds for others. Of course this can be done any day, not just one day a week. Its my assertion that if we observe the commands of Christ and his apostles, then we will automatically be observing Sabbath everyday, in the same way as Christ observed it. Jesus was a carpenter by trade, and I cannot say whether or not he worked as a carpenter on Sabbath. However, if Jesus loved others as himself which I assume he did, then he worked to feed his family, i.e. perhaps his mother, and to feed others who were needy, then how would working his trade as a carpenter be wrong, even on Sabbath? Therefore if he worked as a carpenter on Sabbath then his pay was used to help others, and therefore was a good deed. Its my assertion that a person can work on Sabbath, even at their job, and still fulfill the law as Christ taught it. However, this would mean that aperson must obey the law which says that we love others as our self.

If we observed these commands and examples found in these scriptures, we can (in theory) work 7 days a week and every day is observed like Christ observed Sabbath, in my opinion.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

See, this 2 Co scripture refers to the exodus story of gathering manna in the wilderness, and although the Jews did this only 6 days and rested on the 7th, Christ still did good deeds on Sabbath. Working and sharing all you have with others is not wrong and Christ did good on Sabbath. If we follow this acts tradition of sharing all things then we are never dishonoring Gods Sabbath, even if we work on Sabbath, not that I can see anyway. (in theory)

2 Co 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

The historical records show that the apostles and the early church fathers taught that Sunday was the day of the week they were to gather together for public worship of God.

W2L · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:151), and the life (Proverbs 13:14). It is light (Psalms 119:105), liberty (Psalms 119:45), everlasting (Psalms 119:142), good (Psalms 119:39), sweet (Psalms 119:103), righteousness (Psalms 119:40), a delight (Psalms 119:47), good doctrine (Proverbs 4:2), God's word (Psalms 119:172), endures forever (Psalms 119:160), perfect and coverts the soul (Psalms 19:7), makes you wise (Psalms 19:8), clean (Psalms 19:9), more desirable than gold or honey (Psalms 19:10), and are for ever (Psalms 111:9). It is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13), how we show our love for God (Exodus 20:6), something we should remember (Malachi 4:4). Those without the law have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20), are a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5), and his prayer are an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

Whoever does and teaches the law will be great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), faith does not void it (Romans 3:31), it is holy just and good (Romans 7:12), and is a delight to the believer (Romans 7:22).

I love Psalm 119. I don't however see food restrictions and holy days in it. I see words of liberty, love, righteousness, hope. When I read it, I see the Gospel that was given to the Gentiles. See acts 15

W2L · Aug 7, 2016

Jan001 said:
The historical records show that the apostles and the early church fathers taught that Sunday was the day of the week they were to gather together for public worship of God.

I don't care. I follow the apostles in scripture, not historical records written by non apostles.

Travis93 · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
I love Psalm 119. I don't however see food restrictions and holy days in it. I see words of liberty, love, righteousness, hope. When I read it, I see the Gospel that was given to the Gentiles. See acts 15

It was wrote by king David, it's referring to the law of Moses. All the kings were to write their own copy of the Torah and study it (Deuteronomy 17:18-20). The book of Psalms immediately opens with this:

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

W2L · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
It was wrote by king David, it's referring to the law of Moses. All the kings were to write their own copy of the Torah and study it (Deuteronomy 17:18-20).

Yes but read this part.

Psalm 119:18
Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jan001 · Aug 7, 2016

Travis93 said:
The law of Moses is the law of liberty.
Psalms 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Psalms 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Numbers 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Numbers 15:35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Numbers 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

The Law of Moses and its law of circumcision is now called the law of bondage.

Galatians 2:3-5
But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. rsv

Christians are to understand that the Law of Moses of the Jews is now to be likened to the slavery of Hagar and her son Ishmael!

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the (New) Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and shout, you who are not in travail;
for the children of the desolate one are many more
than the children of her that is married.”

28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. rsv

Christians are not bound by the Law of Moses.

Travis93 · Aug 7, 2016

W2L said:
I don't care. I follow the apostles in scripture, not historical records written by non apostles.

Good, then follow their examples of refusing to eat unclean food (Acts 10:4), sabbath observance (Acts 13:14, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:13, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4, Acts 18:11), feast keeping (Acts 18:21, Acts 20:6-16, Acts 27:9), circumcision (Acts 16:3), and not offending at any point of the law of Moses (Acts 25:8, Acts 28:17). And be ready to start offering sacrifices and offerings when the third temple is built (Acts 21:26, Acts 24:17), as well as going there to pray (Acts 3:1) and worship (Luke 24:53).

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