If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

Berean777 said:

That is not what Jesus said.



To deny oneself is not to take part in repeated reflections of the time in flesh, unless one is tempted upon these reflections to revert back to those lustful ways. So we are to do 180 degrees turn and forget what we were in the flesh and to become like our Lord in his personage, as we are being sanctified by the Spirit in our life long walk by faith. If we keep on looking back and reflecting on what we were in the flesh, by considering it as sacrificial, then we become no different to Lot's wife who looked back to the consuming fires of Soddom and Gommorah.

So we are instructed to look upon Christ's wounds in remembrance and not to our own once fleshly faithlessness.



So the world has in the last 2000 years been looking at the Christ who was crucified and many have come to faith by that message. Your twist on looking upon yourself and your wounds in remembrance is rather at odds with the generational message tied to the cross.

If I looked upon my fleshly self in remembrance, I would not look in a positive way, rather it would be repugnate to say the least and one that will make me vomite, rather than consider it as a sacrifice as you have said, after all who do I think I am, to even make remembrance of fleshly sinful self, unless I am having tempting tendencies to revert back to the old fleshly self. So in this regard I have blotted out that old fleshly self, never to be remembered and never to be revisited.

I find it rather bewildering that Full Preterists remember themselves being wounded for their own transgressions. How bizarre!

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I wouldn't know about Preterists, and I don't mean to argue the point. Your points are well taken and true in the vane you have presented. I was referring strictly to our Oneness with Christ having been crucified with Him (not about looking at our own sinful lives in the flesh). Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not mean to say that we should remember the things that God has forgotten.

Here I am typing on Saturday and Sunday and still in obedience to the Sabbath, now who would argue with that?

Do we question one's faith based on outward acts of the flesh as the original post, accompanied by the title implies?

Offcourse not!

So we are not questioning the title of the original post, that is, "If you love me, then obey my commandments", because that is what the Lord instructed in John 14:15. What we are scrutinising is as to the how one keeps the commandments of Christ and this would require a spiritual application and not one that is fleshly and outwardly, in accordance to the old covenant Mosaic laws and ordinances.

If we truly do justice in interpreting what Jesus said correctly in John 14:15, then we need to read all of chapter 14, in order to discern that the context is the giving of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost.

Here are some versus that highlight the context and application in obeying Christ's commandments......

John 14:15-21
15“If you love me, keep my commands.16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

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Jesus is comforting his disciples to hang onto his commandments that he taught and that was tied to the two that summarised the 10 and the eight beatitudes he taught on the mount of olives. Notice he does not refer to the Mosaic law or any references to Leviticus or Deuteronomy. What Jesus says is to hang on to my instructions which are his commandments, until the Father gives you the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost. Notice that Jesus says that the world will not see the Holy Holy Ghost and neither will the world know him. So immediately from these versus, one can extrapolate that the Spirit of truth is the true Sabbath worship and not one that is tied down by outward fleshly Mosaic ordinances for the world to see and behold as a spectacle, in the case of a physical temple to be built up in Jerusalem, in the Middle East. Notice also this spiritual at-one-ment with the Father and his Christ through the Spirit of truth, is tied to the spiritual temple worship and observance which is to stay in Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath.

If we stay in Christ, then the Christ will manifest himself onto us and we will be in him and him in us as his one and only temple centred worship and so the application and central worship focal point becomes applied solely in the Spirit, discreetly through the temple of the body, in which the born again of the Spirit of God is, after the flesh is put to death.

You cannot define obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ as ones pertaining to outward fleshly observances, for this would be a wrong application in accords to the bygone physical outward fleshly temple that was centred in Jerusalem. This physical temple after Pentecost after the vail was torn into two, been replaced by the temple of the body, Christ's body of believers and therefore the application within the context of true worship in obedience to all the law, is in the Spirit and not by the letter of the Mosaic law, that was previously adjudicated and policed by the Pharisaical authority in black robes.

John 4:21-24
Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

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So there is no such thing for the Mosaic law for the Jews and Grace for the Gentiles, because the application to obedience to all the law is in the Spirit and not to the letter pertaining to fleshly actions associated with customary Jewish ordinances.

Salvation is an act of Grace bestowed upon all of humanity, inclusive of Jews, Greeks and Gentiles, otherwise the power of the cross would be to no avail to that person. Grace is the works of the cross that removed the sentencing upon all of humanity, that was a result from the charges laid down by God through the Mosaic law and in this regard Christ's righteousness is imputed onto our behaves, when we stay in him as his prisoners. For Jews to go it alone by applying the Mosaic law to justify their faith, would be a grave mistake and error in judgment as it would in turn obligate God for the sake of his beloved Son Christ Jesus to remove His Grace from them and to annul their salvation, by placing them under the curses of the Mosaic law, where they will await their sentencing.

So application of the Mosaic law is dismissing God's grace and rescinding his invitation to be joined to His Son through Grace. Without Grace there is no salvation and to continue in Mosaic law is a form of rescinding God's Grace.

I hope that the Jews let it go and come and lay themselves before Christ's feet, at his cross and to allow God to apply His Grace in their lives. What I say is for the benefit of Jews, because I consider them as my Semitic brothers and sisters.

ScottA said:

I wouldn't know about Preterists, and I don't mean to argue the point. Your points are well taken and true in the vane you have presented. I was referring strictly to our Oneness with Christ having been crucified with Him (not about looking at our own sinful lives in the flesh). Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not mean to say that we should remember the things that God has forgotten.

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Accepted thank you brother.

Berean777 said:

So what you are saying that it is ok for Jews to break the Sabbath, as long as there is a valid reason, like, cooking food for the sick, turning lights on for a child that awakes in fright from a dream, driving your car to take your loved ones to a medical centre when they are sick, celebrating birthdays of loved ones, changing nappies for babies.

So your are saying that the Sabbath is done out of love to God through observance, without obligations to the old covenant ordinances, contained in the letter of the law, that stated do this or else this is the punishment.

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Some things, like cooking, are not necessary -- one can easily prepare food that is not cooked, including for the sick. Switching electrical circuits is only considered a flame by the orthodox, and a child waking from a nightmare is better comforted by an embrace. What is a nappie?

I'm simply stating that the punishments stated in the Torah were for when Israel was a theocracy, and are no longer in effect today. IOW there is no one to meet out these punishments. You'll notice that most Jews don't keep the Sabbath, don't eat kosher, don't observe the holy days. Why? They don't have to. Those that do, do so out of love for God.

Open Heart said:

Some things, like cooking, are not necessary -- one can easily prepare food that is not cooked, including for the sick. Switching electrical circuits is only considered a flame by the orthodox, and a child waking from a nightmare is better comforted by an embrace. What is a nappie?

I'm simply stating that the punishments stated in the Torah were for when Israel was a theocracy, and are no longer in effect today. IOW there is no one to meet out these punishments. You'll notice that most Jews don't keep the Sabbath, don't eat kosher, don't observe the holy days. Why? They don't have to. Those that do, do so out of love for God.

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What is the reason for them not having to do all that the law says? If one does not accept Christ then they are still required to observe all the law. This is what Jesus believed. Matt 5: 17. Who has given them permission to ignore the Law? Why does not being a theocracy make any difference? If God required the Israelites to light no light during the night hours of the Sabbath why doesn't it translate to all Jews not just to the Orthodox. When did God change? If He did change what brought it all on?

Open Heart said:

Some things, like cooking, are not necessary -- one can easily prepare food that is not cooked, including for the sick. Switching electrical circuits is only considered a flame by the orthodox, and a child waking from a nightmare is better comforted by an embrace. What is a nappie?

I'm simply stating that the punishments stated in the Torah were for when Israel was a theocracy, and are no longer in effect today. IOW there is no one to meet out these punishments. You'll notice that most Jews don't keep the Sabbath, don't eat kosher, don't observe the holy days. Why? They don't have to. Those that do, do so out of love for God.

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Child nappies are diapers in the American lingo.

In every culture that has adherents growing up in its religion, whether Christianity or Judaism, there are those who take it to the letter and those who don't even bother. We understand these human factors and I do sincerely appreciate the valid points that you have presented.

What has caught my attention from your post is what you states as follows......

"the punishments stated in the Torah were for when Israel was a theocracy, and are no longer in effect today"

Again this may be true to the majority of Jews but to the Orthodox Jews it may be false.

I want to extrapolate on the dangers of Jews, who one day, through extrinsic motivating factors, will be lured to support and also play a role in exacting the bygone theocractic Israel upon not only Jews but also Gentiles. This is a real and present danger, especially when so many Messianics support a future newly built temple in Jerusalem. Once a person claiming to be Messiah comes on the scene, who is believed by the majority of Jews, then there is nothing holding back the theocracy of old Israel from manifesting into the 21st century.

I see and warn all Jews of the danger of such outward, fleshly and temple centred worship, along with the temple sacrifices that were part and parcel of the old covenant theocratic Israel, along with its Torah punishments.

If I asked you a question along the lines of where would you stand if this did manifest with a person claiming to be the Messiah as the earthly Judaic King, what would you say?

That is why true worship is inward in the Spirit and not outward to the letter of the law. If we did continue in outward fleshly worship and observances, then what will stop a theocratic worldly religious system from manifesting, in imposing say Saturday laws and or Torah punishments?

My reply to this question is no human except God himself!

Bob S said:

What is the reason for them not having to do all that the law says?

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Asked and answered. But in case you didn't see it, basically one does not keep a law if a life is at stake, or if care is necessary, as with caring for children or temple duties.

Berean777 said:

"the punishments stated in the Torah were for when Israel was a theocracy, and are no longer in effect today"

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That is NOT true. Jews today do NOT i.e. stone people, exile people, whip people, or fine people. A beit din meets primarily to give judgment over things like business disputes. Berean, I was Orthodox for years, and never saw someone punished for breaking a commandment, except by wagging tongues, which itself was breaking a commandment.

I would think that you would actually appreciate that the spirit of the law is being kept, and as Jesus said, the basics of Justice, Mercy, and Faithfulness, are being honored first. I would think that you would actually appreciate that Jews are still keeping the law out of love even when punishment is not looming on the horizon. Why is all this so deplorable to you?

Open Heart said:

That is NOT true. Jews today do NOT i.e. stone people, exile people, whip people, or fine people. A beit din meets primarily to give judgment over things like business disputes. Berean, I was Orthodox for years, and never saw someone punished for breaking a commandment, except by wagging tongues, which itself was breaking a commandment.

I would think that you would actually appreciate that the spirit of the law is being kept, and as Jesus said, the basics of Justice, Mercy, and Faithfulness, are being honored first. I would think that you would actually appreciate that Jews are still keeping the law out of love even when punishment is not looming on the horizon. Why is all this so deplorable to you?

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I can see this old Jewish system of worship as potentially being an open door for the other guy to come and physically reign from Jerusalem, after the newly temple is built. Build it and he will come!

Hindsight is a terrible thing, we know that the 1st century Jerusalem and the temple according to Prophet Daniel was built up for the true Messiah, However the 21st century Jerusalem and temple is awaiting the seventh king to reign from there. This seventh king will be Lucifer in the flesh.

I can tell you it is very close. Maybe one day you can be a champion in rallying your Jewish kindred to not fall for this deception.

Berean777 said:

This seventh king will be Lucifer in the flesh.

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Not sure what this had to do with the conversation.

Open Heart said:

Not sure what this had to do with the conversation.

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There is a real and present danger that adherents to the old Jewish system of worship centred around temple worship and sacrifices, which are tied to the Mosaic laws, are the vehicle to usher in the king of this world aka Lucifer. That is why true worship is in the Spirit and the application of the Sabbath and the commandments is inwardly in the Spirit and not by the letter of the Mosaic law.

If Jews today give life to the practices of old, then they are inviting an earthly person calling himself messiah.

Berean777 said:

There is a real and present danger that adherents to the old Jewish system of worship centred around temple worship and sacrifices, which are tied to the Mosaic laws, are the vehicle to usher in the king of this world aka Lucifer. That is why true worship is in the Spirit and the application of the Sabbath and the commandments is inwardly in the Spirit and not by the letter of the Mosaic law.

If Jews today give life to the practices of old, then they are inviting an earthly person calling himself messiah.

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Sorry, but I'm just not anti-Judaism the way you are. I agree with my Church that Christianity has a special relationship with Judaism, which is utterly unlike any other non-Christian faith. The Jews are still a covenantal people, and still play a part in God's salvation plan til the end.

Open Heart said:

Sorry, but I'm just not anti-Judaism the way you are. I agree with my Church that Christianity has a special relationship with Judaism, which is utterly unlike any other non-Christian faith. The Jews are still a covenantal people, and still play a part in God's salvation plan til the end.

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That's a bit harsh why do you say such a thing?

When a person loves truth and loves humanity and wants no one to be deceived, that person will tell it the way it is, even if people wrongly put labels on him. Jesus and his disciples were also wrongly labeled and all they wanted to do is to save their Jewish people from the deception of the Pharisees. As Jesus would say.....

Luke 12:54-59
Interpreting the Times

54He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?

57“Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

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Jews need to be reconciled to the Lord through the cross, under the blood covenant of Grace, otherwise they will dearly pay with their lives. How can they be so ignorant of the present times and not be able to interpret and to discern that Messiah has already come and the one who they are awaiting for is the devil. If we truly loved our Semitic brothers and sisters then we have to tell them about the present times and about everything that Prophet Daniel said, that is now being fraudulently repeated, by the building of the temple, in the newly rebuilt Jerusalem for the coming of the other guy.

You see crusaders is no more anti-Christian than new age Judaism is anti-Judaism. If we can discern the times as those who are in Christ, then how is it that we not tell the Judaisers of the near and present danger, that is if we really cared for them, so that they do not fall for the deception coming upon all present day Jews. If we remain silent and allow it to happen then we show that we really don't care and are wanting to see them suffer all over again. So in this regard we have to highlight to them the times and the seasons and all indicators that are in place for the other guy to come and reign from Jerusalem.

Certainly I care enough about my Semitic brothers and sisters to call a spade a spade and to warn them, as best as I can about the times ahead. I urge you also to put aside labels and to discern the near and present danger of continuing with the old covenant practices, sacrificial system, especially when you profess Christ in your life, then you serve Christ and not Moses. In the prayer service of Messianics, how many times is Moses mentioned compared to Christ, please tell me?

Berean777 said:

That's a bit harsh why do you say such a thing?

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I don't see where I said anything harsh. I'm just voicing my disagreement in a tactful way. Are you saying that you have a pro-Judaism attitude? Because you sure didn't come across that way.

I think God considers Jews a special case. This is why it says in Romans 11 that All Israel shall be saved and that although they are enemies of the gospels, with regards to election (being saved) they are LOVED for the sake of the patriarchs.

Open Heart said:

I don't see where I said anything harsh. I'm just voicing my disagreement in a tactful way. Are you saying that you have a pro-Judaism attitude? Because you sure didn't come across that way.

I think God considers Jews a special case. This is why it says in Romans 11 that All Israel shall be saved and that although they are enemies of the gospels, with regards to election (being saved) they are LOVED for the sake of the patriarchs.

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You are one of those symbolic several thousand that Christ has reconciled onto God by Grace.

Romans 11:4-6
4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

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So the words of Paul are in regards to election of several thousand through the new covenant age from the time of Christ until his coming. These are bestowed God's love and are saved by Grace.

The point I am trying to make is that they are not saved through the old covenant, but through Grace. Also it is not that all Jews are saved, but Israel of the New Covenant, which is built on the cornerstone Christ, will be saved.

Remember what Jesus said....

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

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The fact is that if we say to the Jews that they are saved outside of Grace, then we are undermining the gospel of Jesus Christ and at the same time doing the Jews without Christ (Grace) a huge disservice.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

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The fullness of the gentiles is when they come as the 3rd, 6th, 9th hour workmen, then at the 11th hour, the Sons of Jacob will take up the workload to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ for the last and final time before Christ's brilliant coming.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written

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Paul is hoping that in the final hour his compatriots will take up the baton and rally the world for the last hour.

You see I have the same vision as Paul did for the Jews. The modern Jew without Christ must say in their hearts blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord and then pick up, where the gentile church left of from, to then preach the gospel of Jesus Christ for the last and final time to their compatriots and the world.

Can I put it any simpler sister in Christ.

Berean777 said:

You are one of those symbolic several thousand that Christ has reconciled onto God by Grace.

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Yes I am, but I respectfully disagree with you that we are those that Paul is referring to by those verses.
1. ALL Israel shall be saved. Not the remnant, but ALL.
2. In Romans 11:28, Paul is referring to enemies of the gospel, so he is NOT referring to believers, NOT referring to those of us who are of the remnant. He is saying that unbelieving Jews are among the elect (saved).

BobRyan said:

Christians are under the New Covenant - as noted in my post above.

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Which means that "in practice" as Paul points out in Romans 6 - these are written on the heart - and the Christian chooses "not to take God's name in vain" -- in practice... not merely in theory or in principle - but in real life.

Paul makes a big deal of that in Eph 6:2 and in Romans 2:13-16.

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The practice of the law is a topic of debate and controversy for the ages where those born again of the spirit struggle with there position of remaining in the world and in the flesh. But if they/we are to take to heart, not only the law, but the fact that the old man of the flesh has died and that it is no longer we who live but Christ...we have no argument. It is finished.

So then, if we have not taken the truth to heart in full, are we right to turn back to the law, or become respecters of the law as opposed to respecters of the spirit of Christ living within us? No...for to do so, is to deny Christ.

Therefore, we let the dead bury the dead, and following Christ we press on.