If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

Acts24Fourteen · Oct 23, 2015

True Science said:
None of the commandments are rudiments of this world. How is the rest of the Law rudiments of this world but not the Ten [Words, Commandments]?

And not once is the word 'dogma' used in the LXX to refer to the ordinances of Law.

The so-called LXX [a Roman Catholic work of Origen, etc] uses "dogma" in "decrees", "command", "be written", "prohibition" etc. Never a 'record of debt'.

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=δόγμα

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=δογματίζω

The "ordinances" that Paul speaks of

In Colossians 2:14, "...the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us ...";

Colossians 2:16, "... the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, ...";

Ephesians 2:15, "... abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances ...";

Hebrews 9:1, "... ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10, "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

Those passages speak about those things hand written of Moses, based intheir promises to do all of them, dealing with "sacrifices", [ritual, laver] "washings", "divine service", "worldly sanctuary", "rudiments of the world", "carnal", "flesh", "contrary", "against us".

Since those things typified [shadow] Jesus Christ, the reality [body], in His death, they were no longer of use in their physicality.

The Law of God, the Ten Commandments, are not removed. It is the standard, of which Jesus Christ Himself the living example of it.

Those other things, "carnal ordinances", pointed to Jesus Christ, who would be the sacrifice for sin [transgression of the Holy Law].

Poster0 · Oct 23, 2015

Open Heart said:
You said it, Jan!

You'll find that Bob resorts to calling the Ignatius text a fraud rather than acknowledging he is mistaken.

Bob is right. There is no biblical evidence that Christians treated Sunday as if it were holy. They met everyday of the week, not just on Sunday.

Poster0 · Oct 23, 2015

Jan001 said:
Very interesting how the early church's writings show that Christians actually worshiped on Sunday and not on Saturday and also that none of these writings say that the early Christians worshiped on Saturday.

In the book of Acts we see that the early church met everyday, so they surely gathered together on Saturday, Sunday, Monday and every other day. Sunday is not the Lords day, its just a day that people call the Lords day.

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2015

Open Heart said:
We've been through this before, Bob. The letter to Smyrna is accepted as authentic by Scholars. I've provided you with multiple links -- it's all over the web as its conventional wisdom, the CONSENSUS of scholars. It is ridiculous for you to point to other letters of Ignatius that are fraudulent and argue fallaciously that because some are fraudulent that all must be.

Getting "concensus" does not mean that scholars in all denominations accept it -

In any case the "Concensus" is that at least 50% of the supposed-Ignatius letters are obvious forgeries and so it remains for "concensus" to see if the other half are also forged.

That minefield of forged ECF document "proofs" is the realm of some solutions that choose to oppose the alternative - which is "sola scriptura proofs" and testing of all doctrine and tradition.

Pick one.

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2015

Poster0 said:
Bob is right. There is no biblical evidence that Christians treated Sunday as if it were holy. They met everyday of the week, not just on Sunday.

In Acts 2 it says that they met every day.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we find Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel sermons as part of the worship service for both Jews and gentiles.

in Acts 15 James affirms the point that scripture is heard in every city - every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2015

Jan001 said:
The "early" church fathers recorded that the Christians worshiped on the first day of the week, Sunday.
"Later" church fathers recorded that the Christians worshiped on the first day of the week, Sunday.
"Much later" church fathers recorded that the Christians worshiped on the first day of the week, Sunday.
Today, Christians worship on the first day of the week, Sunday.

I do see a pattern here.

The "early church Fathers" -- Paul, James, John, Luke, Peter -- wrote about what they were actually doing IN the first century.

Sadly they are to be dismissed in favor of a virtual minefield of forged documents and sketchy evidence in later centuries.

Well I am not one of those who makes that exchange.

Poster0 · Oct 23, 2015

BobRyan said:
In Acts 2 it says that they met every day.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we find Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel sermons as part of the worship service for both Jews and gentiles.

in Acts 15 James affirms the point that scripture is heard in every city - every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

I agree that Sunday is a man made tradition, and not one that the Church of the new testament apostles gave us. I don't agree that Sabbath is required though. Feel free to disagree though, and i wont debate it because its a never ending debate.

BABerean2 · Oct 23, 2015

BobRyan said:
in Acts 15 James affirms the point that scripture is heard in every city - every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

He affirms something else in the same passage that you forgot to mention...

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(There are some today who are doing the same thing. They are modern Judaizers.)

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Paul describes the Sinai covenant in Gal. chapter 4 as bondage that should be cast off.)

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Context, Context, Context...

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2015

BobRyan said:
In Acts 2 it says that they met every day.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we find Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel sermons as part of the worship service for both Jews and gentiles.

in Acts 15 James affirms the point that scripture is heard in every city - every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

BABerean2 said:
He affirms something else in the same passage that you forgot to mention...

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(There are some today who are doing the same thing. They are modern Judaizers.)
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Paul describes the Sinai covenant in Gal. chapter 4 as bondage that should be cast off.)
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

crucial context - that you skipped.

Acts 15
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

===============Law of Moses===================

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" Matt 22, Romans 13, James 2
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" Matt 22
Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and Mother" Matt 19, Eph 6:2
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Rom 2
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

True Science · Oct 23, 2015

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Meowzltov · Oct 23, 2015

Poster0 said:
Bob is right. There is no biblical evidence that Christians treated Sunday as if it were holy. They met everyday of the week, not just on Sunday.

Are they any Bible verses that SAY they had communion every day? The only record we have for breaking bread is on Sunday.

Meowzltov · Oct 23, 2015

BobRyan said:
In any case the "Concensus" is that at least 50% of the supposed-Ignatius letters are obvious forgeries and so it remains for "concensus" to see if the other half are also forged.

NO, you have that wrong. The consensus is that 8 of the letters are fraudulent, and seven of them are AUTHENTIC.

If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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