if you CHOSE to sin, are you still saved?

I know that the gift of salvation comes freely from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I know all we have to do is accept this free gift and accept Him as our Savior, acknowledge that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves and we have salvation. I believe we cannot lose our salvation once put in the hands of the Lord.
My question is for someone that claims to be saved, and loves the Lord Jesus during the day, but every single night, pours the alcohol down their throat. drinks till drunk. nightly. knows it is wrong, but says they cannot stop.
Since this person is choosing to sin repeatedly and not turning from their sin, does this change their salvation and damn them to hell?
I believe we all must repent as Jesus Himself told us to "Repent, and turn from your wickedness of sin." When this disobedience is a daily thing, then does that person become unsaved and bound for hell?

The person in your example has an addiction with moral consequences, besides the medical/physical problems of addiction that develop over time. They need intervention and treatment, coupled with spiritual counsel, which by the way, starts them on repenting in the true sense of the term of turning away from alcohol. You say that you believe that a truly saved person cannot lose their salvation. If the person in your example is truly saved, then their habitual drinking problem, which is also their besetting sin, in and of it's self can't cause them to lose their salvation in Christ; if indeed they did at some point come to saving faith in Christ. Their chronic drinking will however lead to the destruction of their relationships with family and friends, along with other grave and serious consequences that will cause them to either hit bottom and seek help, or it will eventually kill them if they refuse help.

The person in your example needs serious help, both spiritual and medical. Many addicts if they are honest, want to quit, and all the moral preaching in the universe makes declaration they were born with the constitutional ability to not drink. Most addicts would love to act upon such, with will power, but the function to do so is damaged. This is how all sin works when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. I know many Christians mistrust and slander AA, but their principles when taken to their core, remind me very much of reading the book of Romans in how to deal with sin in one's life. The person in your example needs serious help, and there are Christian counselors out there that have training in dealing with folks struggling with alcoholism and addictions. I hope this person in your example gets help, because I have the feeling they are not just a metaphor for your theological questioning.

Bluesman, I thank you for your reply. I assure you I am not speaking of myself, but of a loved one. He refuses to go to AA, he has been twice to a psychiatrist, told her everything was fine and never went back. He's been given the pill they have to curb cravings for alcohol, he's been prayed for over and over, he's prayed himself over and over. He quits sometimes for two weeks, and then starts it up again.
I have turned this matter over to the Lord. I pray till I can't pray anymore...still nothing happens. nothing changes. It is making me doubt the Lord's intervention in this matter. Maybe he is not truely saved or this would not be happening...wouldn't the Holy Spirit in him start to change him and he would not want to do this anymore? or hurt everyone including the Lord the way he is? I really don't see an end to this, that is why I am asking if he is doomed to hell..because I think the only thing that will make him quit is if he dies from it. It's his eternal soul I am worried about. He goes to church, he reads the bible daily, he professes scripture non stop, he preaches to everyone around him and then secretly gets drunk every night when no one is looking. Only God at this point can help him, but what if God doesn't want to?

I'll pray for you and your situation. Cold comfort I know, and I'm sure you've had others offer you the same, yet I will do so. It sounds like he actually doesn't want to quit and sadly he hasn't hit bottom hard enough to want to do so. I can't judge his heart to know if he ever came to saving faith or not, but for all practicality he's living his life in many ways as if he were not and I'll leave it at that. However I do know of Christians having to deal with addiction issues that weren't present at the time of their coming to Christ, but came later. Such is the problem of sin and our being fallen creatures who can only find resuce through Christ and our sanctification through the power of the Holy Sprit and not of our own self will.

My advice is for you to turn to God and take care of yourself first. You can't do anything about this person's drinking, and you clearly have grasped that. It still hurts and I wouldn't deny that. You could try Al Anon, or get other spiritual support to realize that you are not alone in the heartache of having a loved one that's an alchoholic. The main thing is that you need to live your life in Christ in the freedom that God has called you to. As far as he is concerned it's between him and God, and if he's truly saved he's not going to lose his salvation, but God will deal with him according His will and purposes, even if it's not on the timeline we'd like to see. Yes it could get worse before it gets better. I wouldn't abandon hope, but you did the right thing in turning it over to the Lord to handle. Only God can deal with him. My heart aches for you and your loved one.

Who doesn't choose to sin? If that's the case, I guess no one including Paul was saved.

Well, ask yourself this, what does the Bible say about this? Please note, the Bible does not talk about addictions. It talks about slaves to sin, those who are in the flesh who are children of wrath, heirs of destruction.

I don't know the person you are talking about, so I will only show you what the scriptures says to help you out.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:10

Also, see Galatians 5:19-21

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, see this verse in 1 John 3:8

"Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning."

See also what Jesus said in John 8:34

"Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."

And also what Jesus said in Matthew 7:23

"I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

Now take that and see what it says in 1 John 3:4

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

The true Christian has been born again and has been set free from the power of sin, they cannot continue to practice sin, it is impossible for them to do so (Read romans 6). That is not to say they never sin, but rather, sin as a practice in their life has been done away with.

Now, knowing these things, let's look at what you said about this person.

"My question is for someone that claims to be saved, and loves the Lord Jesus during the day, but every single night, pours the alcohol down their throat. drinks till drunk. nightly. knows it is wrong, but says they cannot stop. Since this person is choosing to sin repeatedly and not turning from their sin, does this change their salvation and damn them to hell?"

Does the Bible describe somebody like this as a lost person, or a saved person?

Also, as a last verse to consider for now...

"They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." Titus 1:16

faceofbear said:

Who doesn't choose to sin? If that's the case, I guess no one including Paul was saved.

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ok, so Im still confused. Christ died for ALL our sins, so this means his sin of alcohol is forgiven? so he can continue and he's still heaven bound?
or is it as the next poster says...he is not truely saved or he wouldn't be doing these sinful ways.?? which is the correct way?

yankeeblue said:

ok, so Im still confused. Christ died for ALL our sins, so this means his sin of alcohol is forgiven? so he can continue and he's still heaven bound?
or is it as the next poster says...he is not truely saved or he wouldn't be doing these sinful ways.?? which is the correct way?

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Whether he is saved or not is not for anyone to judge but God. The person judging him is just as guilty of breaking a command of God of stating that he is not saved.

All men sin. Constantly. Willingly. The question would rather be does he feel any remorse for his sin? Don't forget, the Bible is filled with believers who committed "worse" sins.

The issue, I believe, is that people tend to say, "So and so is drinking." As if they have it all worked out. You might not drink, but I guarantee you do other sins willfully, deliberately, and even without knowing, perhaps.

If he believes Christ has saved Him through the cross, he is saved.

I've known many godly people who have fallen into alcohol, pornography, etc. addictions, who knew they were saved, but continued in them, and eventually repented of those as well. The Bible tells us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought, but to think with sober judgment.

You're friend is drinking, you say? Read Romans 2. Read Romans 3. You're just as filthy and vile as your friend deliberately drinking. Should he repent? Yeah. But I can tell you of people who struggled with alcohol and other addictions solely for their spiritual betterment. God allowed them to suffer through it for a purpose.

If someone believes they are "more sanctified" or have left the Romans 2 or Romans 3 experience, my question is, is that person really saved. Christ said to repent. Yes. But your salvation isn't dependent on repentance or faith, because that would be a work (but if you repent and believe, you are saved, but not because you've repented and believed, but because of Christ -- yet David took 1 year to repent of adultery and murder). Your salvation is dependent on Christ. Let me ask, when was the last time you sinned? If you can think of a time, then you must not have really genuinely repented and aren't saved (I'm using a similar argument that others are using). If you place salvation as a determined factor on repentance or faith, you're teaching a works based salvation that is not dependent on Christ whatsoever.

Ironically people believe they've repented of such vile sins, but cherish them in their hearts. Yet they forget that those who are self-righteous are worse off than those who are stuck in a whirlpool of sinning.

Peter was forewarned and told not to let his heart be troubled, but then he denied Christ 3 times (those who deny Christ, Christ will deny them -- is peter not saved?) consecutively, then his heart was troubled and he wept for fear of judgment.

"so he can continue and he's still heaven bound?"

Yankeeblue, what does the Bible say? Read those verses again. What do the scriptures say? You don't need anybody to tell you whether he is saved or not.

The Bible has very stern warnings about those who continue on in sin, especially those who have come to the knowledge of the truth.

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." Hebrews 10:26


Note what this verse says...

"Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy." Proverbs 28:13

It is only those who forsake their sin that will find mercy. God NEVER promises to forgive unrepentant sin.

If somebody is continuing in a lifestyle of habitual repetitive sin, the scriptures say that person has not been born again. The Christian can fall into sin like David and Noah, but they do not stay there.

Noah fell into drunkenness, he did not live that way, getting drunk every day.

David lept into adultery and murder, but it was not his practice.

Once again, what does 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 say? What does Galatians 5:19-21 say?

Those verses tell us what people WILL NOT go to heaven and WILL go to hell.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

John 10:26-29

Regarding the OP, only our Father in heaven knows if someone is saved, carnal transgressions or not.

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that your rules are righteous, and that in faithfulness you have afflicted me.

If he is truly saved affliction and repentance will come. If he is not he will be left alone to do whatever he wants.

what I get from this thread is just what we see so much in life....conflicting answers of salvation. half of you think we are saved as long as we accept what Christ did for us on the cross, only through Him is salvation, He died for all our sins and we are forgiven...once and for all.
the other half believes that we are not truely saved if we are living in sin, and continue to sin. I agree that we are sinners all, and cannot possibly live one day without sinning.. it is in our thoughts, our makeup as a fallen species. Only through Christ and what He did on the cross do we reach salvation.
I do worry whether or not this person is saved because I love him, and as a loved one, I do not wish to see him suffer in hell for eternity. I thought all Baptists believed it is one of our main doctrines to try to share the gospel of Christ so that NONE may be doomed to hell. Im just trying to figure out how to help him spiritually in any way I can. I do know that only Christ Himself can know if his heart is true and he is truely saved, but in the mean time, I will try to keep him in the Word of our Lord and hope that the Holy Spirit convicts his heart enough to make him turn from this vile, evil destructive habit.
thank you all for your comments.

"half of you think"

This is where you are running into problems.

The question is, what does the bible say? Go read the book of 1 John, it was written so that a person may know that they are saved. Read it with your loved one, study it with him. If you go to man, you will get a billion different answers. If you go to the Bible, you won't be led astray with the help of God.

Does this sound fair?

Speaking as a social scientists, I can assure you that there is no such thing as choice. God made us and intended that we commit every sin that we commit, usually so that we can see his Glory later.

MagusAlbertus said:

Speaking as a social scientists, I can assure you that there is no such thing as choice. God made us and intended that we commit every sin that we commit, usually so that we can see his Glory later.

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Hi MA,

That doesn't sound right to me, do you have any scripture to back that up?

Here is one that I believe to be relevant to the topic.

[bible]
1 John 3:4-10 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
[/bible]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add something. Lately I have come to hate sin. I have come to realize that sin basically causes us to disentegrate. It destroys us completely. At one time I could never have imagined actually even disliking sin, but at this point, thanks to God, I find it to be a very negative thing. I believe that Jesus will lead people in this direction and that if you ask Him to lead you there, He will.

I read a very interesting book called "The Reason For God" and the author did an amazing job of explaining so many difficult concepts in the Bible.

MagusAlbertus said:

Speaking as a social scientists, I can assure you that there is no such thing as choice. God made us and intended that we commit every sin that we commit, usually so that we can see his Glory later.

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So, you are saying that God makes us commit sin even after He gives us warnings in Books like the Book of Proverbs?

1 John 5

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

98cwitr said:

1 John 5

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

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Never given a lot of thought to this verse before but I've seen it twice now in this thread and it makes a pretty bold claim depending on how you read it. Haven't quite wrapped my head around it completely so I won't try to speak as an expert on it. We surely know as humans that we still continue to sin after we become believers, but this verse says "anyone born of God does not continue to sin". So what's it saying exactly? Is it speaking more to how God sees the believer as clothed in Christ's righteousness and no longer a sinner? Not sure...

98cwitr said:

1 John 5

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

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So you don't sin anymore?