If you are saved you help those in need

mama2one · Mar 5, 2022

one day the Pastor at church challenged everyone to take off the shoes they were wearing & leave them at the door on the way out

Pastor was going to donate them
of course, many people wear their best shoes to church so that was a surprising ask

concretecamper · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
If we are saved we help those in need. The proof that the rich man wasn't saved is that he never helped Lazarus. Thoughts?

pagans are some of the biggest philanthropists in the world.

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
Possibly they are representing both groups, those who were saved and those who were not. But since you ask me my position, I would say they are representing saved who fall away.

It does! You can help people in need without being saved. But you can't have an egoic stance where you don't help people in need and still be saved.

Helping people in need is just one of many aspects of bearing fruit. It's not only what you do, but also why you do it, out of love for God or maybe for selfish reasons. Bearing fruit also means sharing the gospel, turning away from sin, prayer in the Spirit etc. Also, those people who are not saved lack the vital part of receiving forgiveness, which all of us of course need.

So see we are from two very different beliefs. Yours is a believer can lose their Eternal Life.

My position once a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal life they can never lose it.

So in the parable of the soils when the verse 12 states lest they should believe and be saved.

Then in the other two verses 13 and 14 these people in these verses have believed and have been saved. So once they are saved, they can not go back to being unsaved.

So the 2nd, 3rd and 4th soils all represent saved believers, only one soil produces fruit the 4th soil.

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

concretecamper said:
pagans are some of the biggest philanthropists in the world.

I don't know. Maybe? So?

I can tell you my whole life changed as I got saved. Sure I loved people before as a spiritual seeker, but I wouldn't do that much for people (except friends and family) if it cost me something, but now I put much more into actually helping people. That's what Jesus did to me.

concretecamper · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
So?

So following your line of thinking, what happens to a saved person if he doeant help those in need. Further, what do you define as "help"

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

concretecamper said:
So following your line of thinking, what happens to a saved person if he doeant help those in need. Further, what do you define as "help"

I'd say it depends. If you are a believer and see someone get hit by a car and you just pass by, leaving the person bleeding on the street, you may extinguish the Holy Spirit in your heart, and I believe you can lose both your faith and salvation.

I'm not saying we got our hands tied behind our backs and need to help every person on the street that asks for money. It's in the heart. If you love Jesus, you have a generous heart. Even so a believer may fail and do terrible things. Life can be really hard and we make the wrong decisions at times. We all need forgiveness.

Further I would say that you are probably not saved if you have a stance against helping people in need, or there is something else going on that is preventing you, like a mental illness.

I can't define "help people in need" more than we are to be generous to the less fortunate, whether it is people suffering from war, poverty, accidents or illness ...

And no... it doesn't have to be finacially...

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

d taylor said:
So see we are from two very different beliefs. Yours is a believer can lose their Eternal Life.

My position once a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal life they can never lose it.

So in the parable of the soils when the verse 12 states lest they should believe and be saved.

Then in the other two verses 13 and 14 these people in these verses have believed and have been saved. So once they are saved, they can not go back to being unsaved.

So the 2nd, 3rd and 4th soils all represent saved believers, only one soil produces fruit the 4th soil.

Actually this is the first time I have heard this view.

Do you think that is the natural understanding of the passage, if you had no theological expectations from the Bible?

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
Actually this is the first time I have heard this view.

Do you think that is the natural understanding of the passage, if you had no theological expectations from the Bible?

Why not when there are verses like this that support a believer never losing their Eternal Life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

d taylor said:
Why not when there are verses like this that support a believer never losing their Eternal Life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

I agree that it sounds like that. But is there other ways this can be understood than that a believer can't lose salvation? There is. Either way is this passage to trump all passages saying a believer can lose salvation?

Btw, most believers of "perserverance of the saints" I have heard, say that the 2nd and 3rd soil represents people that never were saved.

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
I agree that it sounds like that. But is there other ways this can be understood than that a believer can't lose salvation? There is. Either way is this passage to trump all passages saying a believer can lose salvation?

Btw, most believers of "perserverance of the saints" I have heard, say that the 2nd and 3rd soil represents people that never were saved.

I am not sure what verse exactly you have in mind.

But preserve to the end and you will be saved, is about believers during the tribulation. If they preserver to the end of the tribulation, they will save their physical life. And go into the millennium rule of The Messiah.

He Who Endures Will Be Saved (Matthew 24:13) – Grace Evangelical Society

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

d taylor said:
I am not sure what verse exactly you have in mind.

But preserve to the end and you will be saved, is about believers during the tribulation. If they preserver to the end of the tribulation, they will save their physical life. And go into the millennium rule of The Messiah.

He Who Endures Will Be Saved (Matthew 24:13) – Grace Evangelical Society

I could quote maybe a dozen, but I'm sure you will say they mean something else. But this is not whether a believer can lose salvation or not, but if a saved believer bear fruit, and I say they do.

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
I could quote maybe a dozen, but I'm sure you will say they mean something else. But this is not whether a believer can lose salvation or not, but if a saved believer bear fruit, and I say they do.

It is in a way, because that is what the parable of the soils is about. So a person is given three soil examples of saved believes. Now the only option in this is, if a person rejects that a believer might not or will not bear fruit, the 2nd and 3rd soil.

Is to say these soils (2nd,3rd) lost their salvation because the only other option is that these are saved believers who did not bear fruit.

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

-

Here are quite a few articles on believers and bearing fruit just in case you want to see a free grace position on this. Just click on the article to read

Search Results for “bearing fruit” – Grace Evangelical Society

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

-

Here are quite a few articles on believers and bearing fruit just in case you want to see a free grace position on this. Just click on the article to read

Search Results for “bearing fruit” – Grace Evangelical Society

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

d taylor said:
It is in a way, because that is what the parable of the soils is about. So a person is given three soil examples of saved believes. Now the only option in this is, if a person rejects that a believer might not or will not bear fruit, the 2nd and 3rd soil.

Is to say these soils (2nd,3rd) lost their salvation because the only other option is that these are saved believers who did not bear fruit.

Is it that obvious that the 2nd and 3rd soil were (or are) saved believers?

zoidar · Mar 5, 2022

d taylor said:
-
Here are quite a few articles on believers and bearing fruit just in case you want to see a free grace position on this. Just click on the article to read

Search Results for “bearing fruit” – Grace Evangelical Society

Thank you! I will look at it tomorrow. It's 1:30 am here.

d taylor · Mar 5, 2022

zoidar said:
Is it that obvious that the 2nd and 3rd soil were (or are) saved believers?

They received the word with joy but temptation causes them to fall away.
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away

lismore · Mar 7, 2022

zoidar said:
I
We are to encourage each other, we who live in a free country, and belong to the richest people in the world, that we are to help the less fortunate. All we have is a gift from God.

I think a good idea is for a church to set up a hardship fund that can be used to help members of the church who are in financial need. It promotes unity as well also fulfils Acts 2 that no-one in the church is in need. God Bless

If you are saved you help those in need

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