If we are saved by faith alone...

[Wiccan_Child]

... what about Matthew 7:21?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[Bryanfromiowa]

I believe you must read the bible in context. Most confusion comes when people don't do this.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This is the key i believe.

Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Galatians 5 tells us about good and bad fruit

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

We all sin however once you accept Christ the holy spirit should compel you to live int the fruit of the spirit. In other words if a person says they are saved and their life does not reflect it then they may not be. I think james summed up this passage when he said

faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

[ephraimanesti]

... what about Matthew 7:21?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

MY FRIEND,

There is no conflict between faith and works--in fact James points out that "faith without works is dead."(James 2:17) The point to be understood in this regard is that the works are the FRUIT of salvation and not the MEANS to "earn" it.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[ebia]

... what about Matthew 7:21?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

As James says, real faith is that which transforms people. It's about trusting Jesus' way of doing things, not just an intellectual ascent.

But it also needs noting the context in which Matthew quotes Jesus. He's speaking (in the initial sense at least) about a Jewish leadership who are claiming to be doing things in the name of YHWH but are, in fact, acting utterly against YHWH's principles. Saying "I'm doing this in Jesus' name" while acting contrary to everything he stands for shows one's claim to be false. YHWH's name is not a "get out of jail free" card. Rather it's the means to salvation for all who actually put their trust in his way of doing things and through them for all creation.

 

[redcliffesalvo]

And I will show you my faith through my works James

 

[Catherineanne]

... what about Matthew 7:21?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

We are not 'saved' by faith. That is works theology.

We are saved by Grace.

 

[Catherineanne]

MY FRIEND,

There is no conflict between faith and works--in fact James points out that "faith without works is dead."(James 2:17) The point to be understood in this regard is that the works are the FRUIT of salvation and not the MEANS to "earn" it.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Both faith and works are the fruit of repentance. And repentance comes as a result of Grace.

It is Grace which effects our salvation.

 

[Catherineanne]

YHWH's name is not a "get out of jail free" card. Rather it's the means to salvation for all who actually put their trust in his way of doing things and through them for all creation.

The Lord's name is not the means to salvation, nor is our salvation effected by anything we do. This is magical thinking, and ours is not a magical faith.

Grace is the means to salvation.

 

[redcliffesalvo]

good point catherineanne

 

[Catherineanne]

good point catherineanne

 

[ebia]

The Lord's name is not the means to salvation, nor is our salvation effected by anything we do. This is magical thinking, and ours is not a magical faith.

Grace is the means to salvation.

Lots of things are the means to salvation, depending what one means by them and what sense one is asking the question.

"Grace is the means to salvation" is both true (in one sense), utterly inadequate (in another) and completely inaccurate (in another), and doesn't negate other ways of talking about salvation.

"Jesus is the means of salvation" would come closer.

Now clearly from the context of my response I cannot possibly mean that the name of YHWH is some kind of incantation, and must mean the phrase as a shorthand label for a bigger idea.


I would also remind you that responding to the answers of other Christians is not allowed in Exploring Christianity.

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Bro_Sam]

I believe you must read the bible in context. Most confusion comes when people don't do this.



This is the key i believe.



Galatians 5 tells us about good and bad fruit



We all sin however once you accept Christ the holy spirit should compel you to live int the fruit of the spirit. In other words if a person says they are saved and their life does not reflect it then they may not be. I think james summed up this passage when he said

Bingo!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I believe you must read the bible in context. Most confusion comes when people don't do this.



This is the key i believe.



Galatians 5 tells us about good and bad fruit



We all sin however once you accept Christ the holy spirit should compel you to live int the fruit of the spirit. In other words if a person says they are saved and their life does not reflect it then they may not be. I think james summed up this passage when he said

MY FRIEND,

There is no conflict between faith and works--in fact James points out that "faith without works is dead."(James 2:17) The point to be understood in this regard is that the works are the FRUIT of salvation and not the MEANS to "earn" it.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

So faith saves us, and our actions change to reflect our newly attained salvation, yes?

When I read the verse, the "Lord, Lord" part seemed to refer specifically to those who do in fact have faith. I take it this is not the case?

 

[Chesterton]

If we are saved by faith alone...

I'd like to say one thing which can't be disputed, and leave it at this; that Martin Luther added the word "alone". "Faith alone" is not in the Greek text.

 

[hlaltimus]

It's really not that hard to understand verses like this if you think about it for awhile. Such verses do not stand in contradiction to free pardon and justification by faith alone, but really only associate with it out of necessity. "Right" and "Identification" are two different things that pertain to a person entitled to enter heaven, and might best be explained by this mediocre illustration:

If you are having a party in your house and ask someone next to you to, "Bring Judy into the house!", you might then get an answer of, "Who is Judy?"
"Judy is the one in the full red dress, look for that."
Your servant's immediate ACTION is to look for a woman in a full red dress, but his OBJECTIVE is to bring "Judy" into the house.

At the time of death, God's objective is to bring to glory all who have been pardoned by the death of his Son, justified by the His righteous life, indwelt by His Holy Spirit, and all received soley through faith, freely and by grace. However, the angels who carry the saints to glory are only sent to professing believers who also manifested the life of Christ in their lives. A saint will be allowed entrance into heaven upon the legal basis of his or her union with Christ by faith alone, but they are identified as being those who have that legal basis by the inevitable fruits of that legal union with Christ in their lives. They get in by faith alone, but that faith is not alone! Jesus said about the resurrection unto life,

"...those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:29

We are initially saved by the presence of faith, but we are indentified for resurrection to life by having "done good" as he said. Judy gets into the party because she is Judy and not so much because of the dress that she is wearing...neither did she get in without the dress, and a righteous life works the same way: It is evidential of faith.

 

[ebia]

.

 

[ephraimanesti]

So faith saves us, and our actions change to reflect our newly attained salvation, yes?

MY FRIEND,

This is basically correct, if somewhat over simplified. Our actions change because, following Salvation, they are controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit rather than our own sinful egos and thus we do God's will rather than our own.

When I read the verse, the "Lord, Lord" part seemed to refer specifically to those who do in fact have faith. I take it this is not the case?

No, unfortunately it is not. There are many today who refer to Jesus Christ as their "lord" but their spiritual state and actions show that their true allegiance lies elsewhere. Many so-called "christians"--quite a few "televangelists", for example--"prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles"--but are little more than spiritual prostitutes peddling the word of God for profit, a forerunner of whom was the sorcerer Simon, to whom Peter, in rebuke, stated, "You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God."(Acts 8:9-24) Faith which does not result in the surrender of one's heart totally and completely to God is worthless because, as James states, "Even the demons believe, and they tremble."(James 2:19)

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Wiccan_Child]

This is basically correct, if somewhat over simplified. Our actions change because, following Salvation, they are controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit rather than our own sinful egos and thus we do God's will rather than our own.

So someone who doesn't do God's will has yet to be saved? Does this mean that those Christians who have committed atrocities over the millennia, aren't really saved?

No, unfortunately it is not. There are many today who refer to Jesus Christ as their "lord" but their spiritual state and actions show that their true allegiance lies elsewhere. Many so-called "christians"--quite a few "televangelists", for example--"prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles"--but are little more than spiritual prostitutes peddling the word of God for profit, a forerunner of whom was the sorcerer Simon, to whom Peter, in rebuke, stated, "You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God."(Acts 8:9-24) Faith which does not result in the surrender of one's heart totally and completely to God is worthless because, as James states, "Even the demons believe, and they tremble."(James 2:19)

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Is it possible to believe, to have true faith, but still have misleading actions?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It's really not that hard to understand verses like this if you think about it for awhile. Such verses do not stand in contradiction to free pardon and justification by faith alone, but really only associate with it out of necessity. "Right" and "Identification" are two different things that pertain to a person entitled to enter heaven, and might best be explained by this mediocre illustration:

If you are having a party in your house and ask someone next to you to, "Bring Judy into the house!", you might then get an answer of, "Who is Judy?"
"Judy is the one in the full red dress, look for that."
Your servant's immediate ACTION is to look for a woman in a full red dress, but his OBJECTIVE is to bring "Judy" into the house.

At the time of death, God's objective is to bring to glory all who have been pardoned by the death of his Son, justified by the His righteous life, indwelt by His Holy Spirit, and all received soley through faith, freely and by grace. However, the angels who carry the saints to glory are only sent to professing believers who also manifested the life of Christ in their lives. A saint will be allowed entrance into heaven upon the legal basis of his or her union with Christ by faith alone, but they are identified as being those who have that legal basis by the inevitable fruits of that legal union with Christ in their lives. They get in by faith alone, but that faith is not alone! Jesus said about the resurrection unto life,

"...those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:29

We are initially saved by the presence of faith, but we are indentified for resurrection to life by having "done good" as he said. Judy gets into the party because she is Judy and not so much because of the dress that she is wearing...neither did she get in without the dress, and a righteous life works the same way: It is evidential of faith.

Is the dress arbitrary, or is it a required formality? Say, she was invited because of her contributions to medicine, but she would only be allowed in the party if she was appropriately dressed?

Yes, I'm overextending the metaphor .