If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask

porterross · Oct 4, 2007

So someone you care about, but are not romantically, intimately involved with or married to was having a sexual relationship (but not committing adultery or some manner of sexual immorality) with someone else and you believe that YOU'VE been wronged?

I don't get this on any level. If they were single adults it's not really anyone else's business, is it?

RadMan · Oct 4, 2007

Why are you so worried about someone else? Why don't you just take care of yourself? You're trying to control others. If they are unrepentant that's God's problem and not yours.

This whole thing doesn't make any sense?

Zecryphon · Oct 4, 2007

"I understand that they are (although unbeknownst to them) a victim of evil spiritual forces which tempted them and led them to sin against me. Although this person acted in cooperation with those spiritual forces (ie the devil) in sinning against me, I understand that, since they were blinded by the devil, I should rather pity them than be angry at them. Yet it was also their choice to do that to me, so its difficult to eradicate ALL bad feelings towards them until they say "I repent"."

Okay, even if they said that, who are they repenting to? You? Who are you? Sins like the ones you're talking about are sins against God and that's to whom they need to repent, not you.

"It is, rather, their statement to me that they refused to repent, that bothers me more. This person was aware of their sin, that it was a sin against loving one's neighbor, not only a sin of omission but a sin of commission, and they chose to continue in it."

Sounds more like unrequited love here, not a case of not loving thy neighbor. Did you have feelings of affection or love towards one of the people involved, but they passed you over in preference of another person?

"But I realize I cannot be too angry with them since they were blinded by the enemy, the devil. "

Or maybe this person just doesn't like you in that way.

"It is, rather, the devil that I should be rebuking, instead of hating flesh-and-blood (the person who offended me) I should hate the one who tempted them into doing such a thing to me, and rebuke that entity in the name of Lord Jesus Christ."

Never figured you for a Pentacostal. They're big on that whole rebuking of the devil thing.

"I understand that this person is caught in a trap even until this very day, trapped by sin. Trapped by the sin of 1) not forgiving me and 2) not loving me, among other sins."

I don't think not being romantically interested in another person who is interested in us is a sin.

"I'll say one thing about what happened... part of this situation was caused by their choice to engage in a fornicating relationship, which they were well-aware I was opposed to, and which I rebuked them for at length. The person is married now, which brings me joy to know they no longer defile the temple of the Holy Spirit (my God), but it troubles me that they did not understand the need for me to rebuke them and their fornication."

Walking up to somebody and just rebuking them because you think their lifestyle is sinful, is not a good way to get someone to repent of their sin. They have to understand why it's wrong. Did you educate them as to why or did you just rip into them as a holier-than-thou Christian? From what you've written, I'm going with the latter.

"Now they've departed from the trap of the sin of fornication, but they've fallen into another trap wherein they do not reconcile and seek peace with their brother (namely me), loving their neighbor as God commanded (not suggested)."

I wouldn't say you've been overflowing in the love your neighbor dept. either. It sounds like they're probably ticked at you for interfering in their affairs and rightly so. You don't just get to go around rebuking people as you see fit and then get mad when there are consequences to your actions. If you rebuke someone as you have done, expect them to be torqued at you.

"I'm patient, and my anger is decreasing towards this person, having understood that they have been tempted and blinded by the enemy, our adversary, the devil. Yet I also abhor the fact that they chose to do to me what they did, despite the fact that I have always had their best interests in mind, and that I have always had their best interests at heart. However they still will, and should, pay for what they did to me, if they do not repent."

If they pay for anything it will be because God wills it not you. It sounds to me like your more angry that they did this to you rather than sinning against God. You remember Him right? He's the one you're supposed to be serving. Sure you can rebuke these people using His name, but you want them to apologize to you, not God. Seems rather inconsistent.

"God judges us all according to our works, saved or unsaved. We build with good materials or bad materials... this person chose to build with bad materials, and they will suffer loss for it, in the last day."

Yeah and according to Jesus you are guilty of murder right now as you are harboring angry thoughts and feelings towards your fellow man.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Sounds to me like you need to let this go and repent for your own thoughts as this very situation is causing you to sin.

"The only question then, is, --- are they saved? I mean, if they continue to walk in darkness, refusing to reconcile with their brother, then how could the love of God dwell in them? If they love God, they should love those who have been begotten of him:"

They haven't acted as you'd like them to, so of course they're not saved right? Please. I'm starting to wonder if you're saved. Some of the comments you've made here and the attitude you've displayed are quite concerning.

"We both believe in Jesus, thus one would rightly think that we are both begotten of him, but if they say they love God, then they should also love their brother."

Not if their brother is acting like a jerk inserting himself into their affairs and not respecting their privacy in intimate matters such as what has been described here.

"Because this person hates me, their brother, how could the love of God dwell in this person?"

Sounds to me like you are reaping what you have sown. There's a risk in rebuking people. When we do it we have to be sure we're ready for the fallout of such actions. It sounds to me like you weren't and are now angry at your neighbors, whom you are called to love and forgive as well. You haven't done that, so this whole rant from you is a tad bit hypocritical.

"1john 4:20 is what i base my belief that they are not saved on, that they are a liar, and that they will not be saved until they repent and love their brother."

I've never seen a more bogus statement in my life. They are saved when they repent of their sins towards God, and call upon the name of Jesus Christ to be saved. Not when they act as you'd like them to act and not when they repent to you. Here's a reality check that won't bounce, you are not God. They don't have to repent towards you.

"they say they love God, but by hating me, their brother, they prove that they are a liar."

And by harboring angry thoughts towards them you are a murderer and a liar, because you say you love God, but do not love your neighbors as yourself. Read the following verses and meditate upon them as they apply to your situation here.

Luk 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.

Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Luk 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Luk 6:38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

QuietSpirit · Oct 4, 2007

QuietSpirit · Oct 4, 2007

QuietSpirit · Oct 4, 2007

QuietSpirit · Oct 4, 2007

LilLamb219 · Oct 4, 2007

We are to behave as Christians in this thread please!

DaRev · Oct 4, 2007

Sounds like someone has itchy ears that only want to hear what they want. QS, you have been given excellent sound Biblical advice here. If you choose not to heed the clear word of God in this matter, then your argument is with Him, not us. And the "but its rather disappointing to hear such ignorance from Christians... or I should say, Lutherans" comment was totally uncalled for. I pray the Holy Spirit leads YOU to repent of your blatant violation of the 8th Commandment.

May God have mercy on you.

RadMan · Oct 4, 2007

QuietSpirit said:
That's all I have to say to you report-button-click-happy bastards. It is obvious that your prayers go no higher than the ceiling.

My prayer is, may God forgive your bitterness and anger in Jesus' name.

I hope it gets higher than the ceiling

seajoy · Oct 4, 2007

QuietSpirit said:
That's all I have to say to you report-button-click-happy bastards. It is obvious that your prayers go no higher than the ceiling.

Perhps you should change your name to "LoudSpirit" (just a thought).

Zecryphon · Oct 4, 2007

"That's all I have to say to you report-button-click-happy bastards. It is obvious that your prayers go no higher than the ceiling."

Wow! That was totally uncalled for. Such language from a supposed Christian? That's disappointing. How can someone who claims to be a Christian, yet does not identify himself as such to the forum at large, with any type of icon whatsoever to indicate what kind of Christian he is, swear like an unsaved person and throw a hissy fit, when he doesn't get his way or hear what he wants to hear, be so in tune with the Holy Spirit as to know just how high the prayers of others go. That's amazing!

I will pray that the devil loosens his grip on your heart, on your tongue and on your very angry fingers. As for you, I think you've just about worn out your welcome here. Tell your sob story walkin'.

Tofferer · Oct 4, 2007

To lash out with such anger really is not the right approach QS. Don't think for a second that we haven't considered your concerns. Rather, consider the possibility that we are looking at a slightly bigger picture. This really is something where that best answer has been simply that you forgive the individual and the let God be God. None of us can or should do anything less. I should think that if anything, we would do more, which includes prayer for you, personally.

Zecryphon · Oct 8, 2007

Tofferer said:
To lash out with such anger really is not the right approach QS. Don't think for a second that we haven't considered your concerns. Rather, consider the possibility that we are looking at a slightly bigger picture. This really is something where that best answer has been simply that you forgive the individual and the let God be God. None of us can or should do anything less. I should think that if anything, we would do more, which includes prayer for you, personally.

Wanna see the PM he sent me? His mastery of the four letter word is on full display! It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Tofferer · Oct 8, 2007

Zecryphon,

Thanks, but I'm good. I can probably guess the words and would rather not see them. In truth, I looked them up once. Truthfully, I don't know anyone that uses those words in thier original proper context, and yes, there really is a proper use for those words.

Zecryphon · Oct 8, 2007

Tofferer said:
Zecryphon,

Thanks, but I'm good. I can probably guess the words and would rather not see them. In truth, I looked them up once. Truthfully, I don't know anyone that uses those words in thier original proper context, and yes, there really is a proper use for those words.

I hear ya. In my current anatomical configuration as per God's design, it would be impossible for me to do what he suggested I do.

porterross · Oct 8, 2007

Zecryphon said:
I hear ya. In my current anatomical configuration as per God's design, it would be impossible for me to do what he suggested I do.

Wow! I can think of a couple suggestions he might have offered. I wonder why he singled you out when several of us said the same thing?

Tofferer · Oct 8, 2007

Anger and pain don't know how to differentiate an individual from a group. Hence, somebody who is carrying that much pain will randomly target an individual as representative of the group, or so my psycology instructor once said.

RadMan · Oct 8, 2007

Tofferer said:
Anger and pain don't know how to differentiate an individual from a group. Hence, somebody who is carrying that much pain will randomly target an individual as representative of the group, or so my psycology instructor once said.

He should at least give everyone an equal opportunity at being offended like I do.

Zecryphon · Oct 8, 2007

porterross said:
Wow! I can think of a couple suggestions he might have offered. I wonder why he singled you out when several of us said the same thing?

I think the reason he singled me out is that I was the one person who from the beginning of this whole fiasco didn't trust him, thought he could be lying about the whole sceanrio and thought something else was going on here that he wasn't telling us about. I think he thought everyone would just grant his request, simply because he asked. To him, this request is no different than praying for a promotion. He doesn't realize the severity of what he was asking, and I find that really bothersome.

I think another reason is that I actually nailed him on what his true motive was behind this whole thing. I don't think he expected me to bring unrequited love into the equation as part of his motive for wanting vengeance against these people. I hit the nail on the head so to speak and that for him was unexpected. Once I brought that out, then he really got nasty. It's like throwing a rock into a pack of dogs. The one that yelps the loudest is the one that got hit. He certainly yelped loudly.

Based upon the PM I got from him after my first response to him, asking if we could be friends, and the last one I got from him, after this had run its course, I can safely say, this person is an attention addict. He desperately needs attention from others to be on him, and needs people to sympathize with him, regardless of what the facts of the matter say as to who is right. When he didn't get that the attention he wanted or sympathy from me, he turned ugly.

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