If the Mormons can be all-volunteer, why can't other churches?

[justme6272]

I heard that the Mormons only have volunteers, no paid staff, from top to bottom. That includes anyone speaking in a pulpit, managing the books, music directors, administrative assistants (formerly known as secretaries), set-up people, custodians, sound people, lighting people, etc. etc.

Larger churches already have scores of volunteers, which the paid church staff are always clamoring for people to do, yet they themselves aren't willing to work for free. We know this, cause if you asked them to continue as a voluneer, they'd leave and go to another church that was paying, and had your church been volunteer to begin with, they never would have applied for the job.

Larger churches have volunteers on stage for traditional choirs, contemporary praise and worship teams, and teaching Bible study classes, some with graduate degrees from a seminary. Trained counselors are around who could volunteer a few hours per week. Many volunteers are perfectly capable of teaching or leading in worship just as well as the paid people do. Churches want volunteers to lead youth or singles groups, but not the main services.

Paid staff hours also seem rather cushy. Sunday may be their most important day, but it's not 8 or more hours. The doors are locked around noon and the rest of the day/evening is at home. They get Mondays off, and many show up later in the mornings during the week, and leave early, especially on Friday. Lots of people have been attracted to the ministry at least in part because they like that cushy lifestyle.

One prominent pastor I know admitted to teaching some youth as a volunteer and asking the group, "None of yall want to get saved do ya?" (not expecting any hands to go up) and several kids, to his surprise, raised their hands. He thought it so easy, he thought to himself, "Hey, I could make a living at this!"

Obviously, having all volunteers would mean all the usual salary and benefits could be spent on other things, if you could just find people who are not only capable but willing to be the one directing the choir, orchestra, main praise team, or preaching the sermon, instead of just being IN the choir, orchestra, praise team, or teaching a small class.

If you're going to bring up all the behind the scenes preparation that has to be done during the week to get ready for services, which is a valid point, I still would resort to looking at all the volunteers who volunteer for 1000 other things in a large church. It would just be an extension of what people have proven they're able and willing to do when asked, or when they step-up without even being asked. If that's not enough, then again, I would ask, if the Mormons can do it, why can't all the Christian churches? Surely there are some out there that are all-volunteer, but I don't know of them, presumably cause they're small and few and far between, if they exist at all (even in many large cities there are none.)

If you are a paid staff member, please don't respond to this post cause I already know your bias, which is to protect and justify your position and self-interests cause you get a paycheck that pays your mortgage, car, bills, groceries, etc, all supporting you and your family. This question is being posed to all the laypersons, whether or not they already volunteer in their churches. I'm basically asking them, "Why can't WE do it?"

Even if we started a small all-volunteer church, who knows that it wouldn't grow into something big like the Mormons if we just learned more about their model and how they attract so many more people who are willing to volunteer however many hours per week? If everyone chips in, it's less work for all, which is the only way I can see that they do it.

There are small one-room churches that stay locked up all week, led by a 'pastor' who has a regular job during the week. We all know the stories of newer start-up churches who lease space in a school or other venue. But eventually, they decide to have bylaws, a constitution, deacons, new salaries, and otherwise become 'institutional.' It shouldn't have to be this way.

Capable people who are all around and often formally trained can do it, delivering sermons and directing music, but for some reason we'd all rather donate money to pay someone else than to divide up responsibilities ourselves. It's a different mindset than the Mormons for some reason. I'm trying to figure out the reason.

If by some small chance you have been part of an all-volunteer church, I'd be especially interested in hearing of your experience and perspective, since you have first hand knowledge of any obstacles that kept you from growing to the size of the mega-churches, some of which have literally hundreds of people on the payroll, most of them part-time under 25 hours, cause at 30 hours, all kinds of benefits have to kick-in under our labor laws. If you go over 20 hours in a given week, the personnel person starts getting nervous and makes sure you don't get anywhere near 30. They can't risk that.

 

[Ken Rank]

Interesting, isn't it. Protestants are so geared around pointing the "heresy" or "cult" finger at the Mormons that they miss the lessons in community they can share.

 

[Oldmantook]

Mormons are taught individual salvation by works. Therefore, they are not "volunteering" in the true sense of the word as they are attempting to "earn" their way into the celestial kingdom. Nonetheless, I think an all volunteer church is a great idea overseen by elders - not paid professionals. Hmm...thought I read about that being done? Oh yeah, it was in the NT!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hmm...thought I read about that being done? Oh yeah, it was in the NT!

And in ekklesia, born again(by the will of God Father Creator), immersed in Yeshua's (Jesus') Name,
today also.
Persecuted, so not advertising,
Small, so not making big news usually.
Healing and Saving others, so not popular with those who do not heal or save others.
Not accepting the loves, desires, or ways of the world,
rather God's Way, Jesus,
not understood by others....

 

[Rescued One]

Some people talk about Mormons but don't have a clear picture.

Requirements for Exaltation (Eternal Life)
The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us all the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. 1.
We must be baptized.
. 2.
We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. 3.
Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
. 4.
We must receive the temple endowment.
. 5.
We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:
. 1.
Love God and our neighbors.
. 2.
Keep the commandments.
. 3.
Repent of our wrongdoings.
. 4.
Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. 5.
Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. 6.
Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. 7.
Have family and individual prayers every day.
. 8.
Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. 9.
Study the scriptures.
. 10.
Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.

•
Gospel Principles, c. 1978, 1979, and 1981, Chapter 47, Exaltation, p. 291-292

I think they forgot to say that if the bishop calls you to serve in some capacity you are to regard that calling as coming directly from God. You should accept the calling.

Members are also expected to do Home Teaching and Visiting Teaching each month. Most members are asked to lead an adult class or children's class or lead the music or play the organ. If you aren't doing these things, others will wonder why you don't want to spend eternity with Heavenly Father.

“For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for the blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted before the foundations of the world. (D&C 132:5.)”
Elray L. Christiansen, General Conference, Oct. 1972

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

I hope that answers some questions.

 

[Rescued One]

In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism we read:

"Because the Church has no professional clergy, it is administered at every level through LAY PARTICIPATION AND LEADERSHIP, and officials other than the General Authorities contribute their time and talents without remuneration. ...Because the General Authorities are obliged to leave their regular employment for full-time Church service, they receive a modest living allowance provided from income on Church investments." (p. 510)

In 1831 Joseph Smith dictated a revelation instructing the church that he was to be supported by church funds:

12. And if ye desire the glories of the kingdom, appoint ye my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and uphold him before me by the prayer of faith.

13. And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him. (Doctrine and Covenants 43:12-13)

Another revelation given at the same time authorized the support of bishops through church funds.

71. And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecreated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

72. Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop.

73. And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church. (Doctrine and Covenants, Sec. 42:71-73)

Since the Mormon Church concedes the right to pay those who serve in a full-time capacity we are left to wonder why they have such strong objections to ministers receiving a "modest living allowance." The claim is made that these funds do not come from tithing but from business investments. Why this should make a difference is not explained. Any money given to or earned by the church should be considered as equally sacred.
Do Mormon Leaders Receive Financial Support?

 

[Rescued One]

Capable people who are all around and often formally trained can do it, delivering sermons and directing music, but for some reason we'd all rather donate money to pay someone else than to divide up responsibilities ourselves. It's a different mindset than the Mormons for some reason. I'm trying to figure out the reason.

The reason is that Mormons are emphatically taught that in order to spend eternity as a son or daughter of God, they have a very strict line to tow.

• “Half obedience will be rejected as readily as full violation, and maybe quicker, for half rejection and half acceptance is but a sham, an admission of lack of character, a lack of love for Him. It is actually an effort to live on both sides of the line.”
  Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Apr. 1982, 21; or Ensign, May 1982, 16

• “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it.”
  Joseph Smith,Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 332

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

A small clean up was done. Please stay on the topic and not on each other.

 

[drjean]

I've never been Mormon but while in Missouri I lived amongst several. The church can have "volunteers" I was told because of what has been mentioned (works for salvation, serving their church) but also because those I knew said they had to sign all of their belongings of ownership over to the "church" ... everything, houses etc. Maybe that was just the MO group, IDK.

BUT IMAGINE if we who have the True Savior and the Spirit indwelling went out as "volunteers" for God, living by faith, what glorious work He will do through us! The just SHALL LIVE BY FAITH... without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Maybe for most it just hasn't "caught on" yet... this life of trusting and living by faith?

 

[actionsub]

Some of the Churches of Christ do not maintain a paid preaching minister; rather the elders take turns preaching. In CoC circles these churches are called "mutual edification" congregations.

 

[The Liturgist]

heard that the Mormons only have volunteers, no paid staff, from top to bottom. That includes anyone speaking in a pulpit, managing the books, music directors, administrative assistants (formerly known as secretaries), set-up people, custodians, sound people, lighting people, etc. etc.

That’s actually not true at all. The LDS Church and the businesses it owns employ many people and have several office blocks in downtown Salt Lake City; I estimate they have more office space in Salt Lake City than exists in the entire Vatican City State. They even list employment opportunities on the LDS church website: Employment Opportunities

Meanwhile, there actually are Chrisrian churches, sometimes mission parishes in denominations, sometimes independent, which only have volunteers. And of course all monasteries, and monastics in general, are volunteers by definition. Nearly all Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox bishops, with the exception of chorepiscopi, who aren’t really bishops but glorified presbyters (priests, or literally, elders) who can perform a limited subset of episcopal functions, and who can be married, like presbyters, unlike in the Roman Catholic Church, ade monastics.*

So basically it is within the monastery and the convent and the friary and other religious orders where one finds the majority of Christian volunteers, who have made vows of lifetime service. There are religious orders of these types in the Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran and United Methodist churches, and probably others, in addition to the Catholic and Orthodox churches, indeed, the Anglican Order of the Holy Cross is a particularly distinguished Benedictine monastic tradition.

In addition to these, however, you will find real volunteers, including myself, operating mission churches without compensation.

Conversely, the Mormon pretense of being all volunteer is a myth; the Mormons take in massive revenue from various sources including mandatory tithing, the sale of temple garments (sacred underwear), which can only legitimately be acquired through an LDS owned company, which I believe is called Beehive Clothing Mills, and even if you want to sew your own temple garments, you have to buy a kit from them. Mormonism is a cult which targets nice, family oriented and well-to-do people and then carefully controls their lives; it is dangerous and heretical, a counterfeit church and a spiritual trap.

There is nothing wrong with clergy being compensated for their service. Indeed in both the Old Testament and in the New, we see the Levites compensated by the other tribes, and we see mention by St. Paul of financially supporting clergy in Corinthians 9:9-14 and other epistles, for example, Philippians 4:16-19, and also in Acts 6:2 and Luke 10:7 we see confirmation that this is acceptable. There are benefits to having paid, full time clergy, and the majority of priests, pastors and ministers in traditional Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox denominations are not well paid; indeed recently one of the historically black Methodist churches in the United States had a major failure in their church pension funds, and there are concerns about the stability of the pension funds in the UMC according to one Methodist clergyman I am acquainted with. No one works for those churches seeking to get rich.

Conversely, those who preach for monetary gain, like the Prosperity Gospel types, are really distorting the Gospel message I think. I mean, the Pope doesn’t have a business jet, the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn’t have a business jet, and the Eastern Orthodox bishops certainly don’t, nor do any Lutheran church leaders I am aware or , and those are still the four largest denominations (Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans), butnmany prosperity gospel preachers do have business jets, and one of those preachers recently became infamous for a fundraising campaign to upgrade to a larger Gulfstream.

Indeed the false prophet Gwen Shamblin,** who turned a “Christian diet program” she developed called “The Way Down” into a heretical cult, an isolationist sect that practiced cruel corporal punishment of children using techniques she advised to make it more difficult for Child Protective Services to detect the bruises, died when her Cessna Citation business jet crashed a year or so ago.

So while there are many Christian denominations with unpaid clergy, and the ultimate form of Christian volunteering is monasticism, prosperity gospel preachers and some televangelists have scandalized the Church by creating the impression of Christian ministry as a financially driven enterprise, which is very wrong, in my opinion.

*There are some monastic presbyters who serve in small Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox parishes which cannot afford married clergy, and some of them live far away from their monastery and either receive a small stipend to cover living expenses or are allowed an additional means of earning money to survive.

** Note that most Prosperity Gospel preachers are at least Nicene Christians, but there are some who are adherents of Arianism and other heresies, like Gwen Shamblin, and these, because they are not Nicene Christians, makes them, like Mormons, not Christian according to the CF.com statement of faith. I strongly advise comparing the statement of faith of any church you are considering joining with that of ChristianForums.com, because the admins of this forum did a fantastic job putting together a statement of faith which combines the Nicene Creed with certain other useful bits, like not denying that the Pauline epistles are inspired scripture, and this really helps in the current climate.

 

[The Liturgist]

Interesting, isn't it. Protestants are so geared around pointing the "heresy" or "cult" finger at the Mormons that they miss the lessons in community they can share.

If those lessons were real and there weren’t Protestant volunteer ministers, including Lay Servants in the UMC, and even fully ordained Pastors who support their work on Sunday with a secular job during the week (also very common in Eastern Orthodoxy, as their priests tend to have families and are not well-paid), and Protestant monasteries, convents and religious orders in the Lutheran, Anglican and Methodist churches, among others, then this would be a valid point, but unfortunately the “volunteer” side of the LDS is kind of a facade, which effectively exploits lower ranking members of the church, causing them to do for free what other denominations would pay for. The LDS is extremely financially exploitative.

I think many Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic communities actually offer what the Mormons claim to offer, including churches whose clergy are working completely pro bono.

 

[The Liturgist]

Some of the Churches of Christ do not maintain a paid preaching minister; rather the elders take turns preaching. In CoC circles these churches are called "mutual edification" congregations.

Just to clarify, are you talking about the Churches of Christ that are a conservative group that broke away from the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, or are you talking about the liberal Mormon sect which separated from the LDS during Brigham Young’s tenure and which has moved closer to mainstream Christianity, but still accepts the Book of Mormon and other heresies?

Because if its the former, I think that is a good denomination, along with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ; the latter however isn’t really Christian.

 

[actionsub]

Just to clarify, are you talking about the Churches of Christ that are a conservative group that broke away from the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, or are you talking about the liberal Mormon sect which separated from the LDS during Brigham Young’s tenure and which has moved closer to mainstream Christianity, but still accepts the Book of Mormon and other heresies?

Because if its the former, I think that is a good denomination, along with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ; the latter however isn’t really Christian.

I am referring to the former that broke away from the Disciples.
The liberal sect that split from the LDS is known as Community of Christ (fka RLDS).

 

[actionsub]

The small Plymouth Brethren sect (also known as Open Brethren) also reject the idea of paid clergy, as well as clergy in general. Instead, they are led by a group of elders who take turns doing the preaching, etc.

 

[Rescued One]

Who sees "community" in Mormonism? It's very difficult to have friends in that cult unless you are one of the elite temple Mormons. The organization keeps you VERY busy, your non-Mormon neighbors are wary of you, some of the devout temple Mormons remind or inform you of strict rules that other Mormons aren't even aware of. No restaurant should be open on Sunday so Mormons only eat at home on that day. Don't go to a grocery store (or any other store) on Sunday(the Mormon sabbath) even if you accidentally burned your meal. Don't participate in sports on Sunday, etc. You are probably okay if you have to go to a pharmacy to get a prescription.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons may be viewed as all-volunteer but they have been taught that if they don't obey the rules they won't spend eternity with their two top gods ("heavenly father" and "Jesus"), they won't have their spouse and children with them, they won't be able to make more children, or create and rule a planet as its god. Every god has a wife who will be with him, she will be anonymous to the people on their planet, and so on. My sister was told as she was dying that she would be in a "kingdom of glory." Those other so-called kingdoms of glory are not with people who have their families with them.

As a matter of fact, according to Mormons, even in the highest kingdom of glory(the "Celestial Kingdom"), those in its two lower levels are not with heavenly father and jesus and they are not gods and their spouses and families are not with them.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons are taught individual salvation by works. Therefore, they are not "volunteering" in the true sense of the word as they are attempting to "earn" their way into the celestial kingdom. Nonetheless, I think an all volunteer church is a great idea overseen by elders - not paid professionals. Hmm...thought I read about that being done? Oh yeah, it was in the NT!

And are Mormons teaching other than the Bible? They teach anti-biblical doctrine.

And did you know that their top officials are paid and they have income from church-owned businesses, too?

 

[Rescued One]

Interesting, isn't it. Protestants are so geared around pointing the "heresy" or "cult" finger at the Mormons that they miss the lessons in community they can share.

You were rated "winner" by a Mormon. LOL.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

A big difference is that LDS services do not include in-depth teaching. Different men of the body are called up to prepare a small message and often testimonies are given. Most Protestant churches have pastors who spend hours and hours a week preparing a detailed message to be taught on Sunday. I used to teach/preach and could easily spend 20 hours preparing for a one-hour teaching. That is hard to do with a full-time job and a family. I was just a lay teacher who also filled in for the pastor at times. The pastor had many additional responsibilities. There is a lot to be said for going through a 3 years seminary or Bible college education to prepare for ministry. You can't be going to college for an engineering degree while going to seminary. Full-time ministry is the work you are preparing for. My pastor is a very learned man who is an excellent preacher/teacher. I am grateful the church can pay him to be full-time.

However, I think American churches are sometimes too big and too focused on their facility. We all want big buildings with lots of classrooms and room for Sunday school, youth activities, the sanctuary, etc. Yet, most of those buildings sit empty 5+ days of the week. We end up needing a large staff to manage all the things the church offers.

When I first became a Christian, I went to a church that met in an old Grange hall. Eventually, that building was sold so we had to move. We then met in the local high school auditorium. Everyone had to pitch in to setup chairs and sound equipment and tear it down after the service. We had no permanent facilities but that was such a close-knit group of believers! I can't think of anything we lacked. We kept our kids with us in church. They learned to sit still and were not a major distraction. I spent time with them every day going over Scripture and praying. I have nothing against children's classes or ministries, but parents need to be the primary teachers of their children and if you're doing a good job at home, children's ministries are not essential. I don't know what the early church did but they did not have dedicated facilities and paid staff. Paul did say a minister deserves support but he himself did not accept it.

If the government ever eliminates tax-exempt status for churches and deductions for church contributions, I suspect many an American church will be in trouble financially. Sadly, many Christians won't give as much if they can't deduct it from their taxes. There may not be money for all those paid staff positions. I am not LDS and think their theology is way off but I do admire how they share facilities where 2 or 3 wards share one building. That makes a lot more sense than every church having to have their own building especially smaller churches that only have one service.