I feel like I should clarify here that I don't think it's strange that they have requirements of people prior to baptism, including requirements that they live according to how the religion wants them to live (you would think if they were going to get baptized they would be at least striving towards living that anyway), but that they would begin to apply them so early on in the person's investigation strikes me as very strange....
Do JWs not give out copies of their "New World" translation or whatever it's called? It's been a long time since I interacted with one of them. My brother was sorta friends with one when he was a teen. I don't remember a lot about the kid other than feeling bad for him after I found out he wasn't allowed to celebrate his birthday.
Most likely they feared being questioned by Peter. Sin causes fear.
Do JWs not give out copies of their "New World" translation or whatever it's called? It's been a long time since I interacted with one of them. My brother was sorta friends with one when he was a teen. I don't remember a lot about the kid other than feeling bad for him after I found out he wasn't allowed to celebrate his birthday.
I feel like I should clarify here that I don't think it's strange that they have requirements of people prior to baptism, including requirements that they live according to how the religion wants them to live (you would think if they were going to get baptized they would be at least striving towards living that anyway), but that they would begin to apply them so early on in the person's investigation strikes me as very strange.
The Coptic people love to have visitors, but they know the Church can appear very demanding from the outside (with its fasts, its long liturgies, its daily prayers, etc.), so usually they will refrain from any such personal talk with you (outside of how you came to find out about the Church, of course, since it's not very well-known in the west) unless you make a habit of continuously showing up. Granted, in my case I made it clear beforehand that I had been doing a lot of studying so I already knew I was interested in it before I was able to actually come to a liturgy (I left the Roman Catholic Church around July of 2009, but wasn't able to go to my first Coptic liturgy until September of 2011 or so), and could read and speak the languages we used other than English (to whatever degree I can!), so I think they might've looked at me a little bit differently. But I saw up close how gentle they were with the Jordanian brother and sister who came to us for several months in a row...some even asked our priest if he would just commune them anyway, even though they were Catholics and hence not a part of our communion (the answer was no, of course), just because they loved them that much. But in the end the Jordanians moved on without baptism, hopefully enriched by the time we spent together. And then there was the time when a random white guy showed up who nobody had ever seen (he had apparently converted to the Coptic Orthodox faith several decades ago, but was passing through the area and had no idea there was a church in New Mexico), and everyone immediately started looking at me and whispering "Do you know this guy?", "Hey, who's your friend?", etc. Ahhhh, yes...I am the White People Whisperer! Like Cesar Milan, but...you know...not.
The point is, under no circumstances would it be considered appropriate for anyone from church to start asking someone who is just starting out in investigating the faith about their personal living situation, their sexual history, or any of this stuff. Those are things that God-willing are dealt with in consultation with your priest, after the baptism which has washed away the old man/woman so that you are a new creation in Christ. Perhaps this is an idea that Mormonism is missing due to its dedication to not really having clergy? (I know they say they have a non-paid clergy, but it seems more honest an accurate to say that they have a group of volunteers who are given the 'priesthood' because it is something given to boys at a certain age as more or less a rite of passage, regardless of their actual level of theological acumen or even interest in being 'priests'.)
I don't know...I have a feeling that if instead of having the traditional "Come and see" attitude that all Orthodox people have (where you learn what we are about by first-hand experience, by coming to some of our services and seeing what and how we pray), the Coptic people had begun grilling me on my sexual sins or other types of sins or other aspects of my personal life, then whether or not I was found to be 'up to code' would be very irrelevant, because I would've never come back for a second visit.
So maybe there is something in these converts where they must respond well to that. Otherwise, I don't how they could ever win over anyone (since I don't entertain the Mormon explanation that it's the Holy Spirit, obviously). Although now that I think about it, my ex-LDS ex-stepmother was very attracted to it at the time by the picture of happiness that the carpenter who introduced her to the religion painted when talking about his family, so there are obviously many different ways by which a person may get in to the religion. (No surprise that this was during a period of great unhappiness in her marriage to my father. Probably the Mormon idea of "happy families living forever together in heaven" or whatever is a very strong motivation for many.)
This guy seems to think they were overbearing and legalistic.
Baptism in Mormonism requires repentance and making a covenant to obey the commandments. Therefore, the potential recipient agrees to live by the standards of the LDS church. The ten commandments list “Thou shalt not commit adultery “(fornication is included). The candidate for baptism will need to know some of what he is covenanting to obey. But unless they've changed, he isn’t told that he must make more covenants in the temple.
Repentance per Mormonism is more than wanting to change. You ought to make restitution for the sins you’ve committed.
The Mormons have a system in place for keeping the visitors interested. Of course, many people will catch the errors if the missionaries are teaching them. I never learned much doctrine in Sacrament Meeting. And I had very little Biblical knowledge to innoculate me against error. But people usually aren’t knowledgeable if they’re willing to listen in the first place.
Mormon deacons, teachers, priests and elders are nothing like priests and pastors as you and I know them! It would take too much time to explain in detail. But let me tell you that the bishops I knew (I barely knew) are usually at work five days a week and you don’t call them if you’re having a crisis. They aren’t available. You call one of your home teachers.
I was never in a bishop’s home; I didn’t know how many children or grandchildren they had. I don’t think their children even attended the same ward as their parents.
The members won't ask those questions at church(their job is to be friendly). This conversation in the video is in the investigators' home. I wasn’t questioned because I was living at home — not with a boyfriend. Had they known my sister’s misinformation about such topics they ought to have taught her about chastity --- she may have never heard of it. I wasn’t present when they taught my mother and sister (each separately).
Side note:
One time we were all gathered together, kneeling on the floor while the missionaries taught us how to pray. That was the first and last time we had family prayer.
Happy family — that’s what I wanted! I believed dysfunctional families would be made right by Mormonism.I somehow had been convinced that all Mormons took their religion seriously! The women never ever complained about anything their husbands had done. That was forbidden. If he was abusive you could meet with the bishop for advice. The husband held the priesthood so if he received an answer to prayer about family matters, the wife took his advice.
I hope I covered everything.
The bishop's family does attend the same ward. The missionaries teach the whole family at the same time unless one or more members are not present or don't want to be taught.Huh. I wonder why they wouldn't all go to the same ward?
Interesting. Is there a reason why they were taught separately?
Thank you.
The bishop's family does attend the same ward. The missionaries teach the whole family at the same time unless one or more members are not present or don't want to be taught.
The bishop's family does attend the same ward. The missionaries teach the whole family at the same time unless one or more members are not present or don't want to be taught.
Thanks for your reply, Phoebe Ann.
That last part is curious. When does the (by then-baptized) person learn about these additional covenants to be made in the temple?
How and to whom are you supposed to be making restitution to for cohabitating? Let me guess: it's to God, but you can pay Him back via work done for/money paid to the Mormon religion?
Ooof...that last sentence!Only an ex-Mormon can say that without being accused of anti-Mormon bias, I bet!
I looked up what "Home Teachers" are supposed to be as per Mormonism, and it's a little bit vague to me...seems a little bit like Godparents in the RCC, from what I remember of that, where they're supposed to check up on you every once in a while, make sure you're doing okay, and maybe answer a few questions of yours, though in my experience in Catholicism they're really only prepared to do that if your questions are basic enough for them to know by just looking up in the RCC's catechism book. Anything more than that would probably require a priest, and certainly any matters needing to be confessed would be. (In practice, I was simply given a copy of the catechism and told to consult it myself whenever I had a question. Hahaha.)
Huh. I wonder why they wouldn't all go to the same ward?
Interesting. Is there a reason why they were taught separately?
Awww.
This is so sad. I know basically all religions in some way or another present themselves as being able to help personal and family problems, but for Mormons this is a unique facet of their theology, so it probably makes it much more disappointing when you find out that the reality does not really match what you were told. Lord have mercy.
You did. Thank you.
That's really interesting. I must admit I am still adjusting to married clergy, having come to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism, where that is not the norm. But even then, what we call a bishop is apparently not the same as what Mormons call bishops, since our bishops are not married (and even priests, if they are to be married, must do so before their ordination; this is to prevent any untoward situation where a man, having power over a congregation in the sense of being its 'leader' as its priest, would use that to his advantage in the dating scene, which I have seen many examples of in churches with more liberal policies...I'm sorry, I'm not a prude, but that always creeps me out). I think a lot of my problem with Mormonism comes from this kind of absconding with Christian terminology, but changing what it means, so that a bishop is not a bishop. So I am still in my brain trying to make sense of it. It's like one of those S.A.T. simile questions: a Mormon bishop is to a Christian bishop as ______?", or for things that Mormons give some other name, "Mormon home teaching is to Christian ______?", and I must admit I don't know the answer usually!
That's why I'm so grateful to the few ex-Mormon posters we have here, as well as the Mormons in their moments of fact-dispensing honesty, who can sort things out! I'm sorry that my posts are often very long...I'm just trying to work things out, and it's very difficult when I think I have a frame of reference for it, but it turns out to be wrong because Mormonism doesn't mean what Christianity means when it says X. I think I've more or less gotten that down in terms of the theology, but looking at the ecclesiology and 'church' structure is still very confusing in some respects.
Oh okay that makes sense.Nearly every bishop I had had grown children who were probably married and living elsewhere.
What does that mean? Is the individual authority free to stray from the prepared questions, and if so, what does it mean that it's "on him" that he does? Is there some way of disciplining him if he asks questions that are invasive and leading, as your own leaders said should not be done? (in the first clip)
Yes, but what business is it of missionaries to already be passing judgment on this couple?
This is very interesting. Thank you. I'm not sure how to phrase this follow-up question, but one thing I've noticed in watching the testimonies of ex-Mormon women is they often refer to their uncovered shoulders (as when wearing spaghetti strap tops or dresses) jokingly as "inappropriate content shoulders" (if that gets auto-censored, then...uh..."adult movie shoulders"?). Do think that this tells or should tell us something about the LDS stance on this sort of topic?
LDS bishops asking such invasive questions in worthiness interviews that they actually give people specific ideas they wouldn't have otherwise had?
LDS leaders revoking temple recommends for refusing to stop talking about your own divorce, in the context of trying to get help dealing with it?
LDS missionaries asking people they've just met who are just barely beginning to investigate their religion about their private lives/personal relationships/living arrangements?
Note: This is in response to posts by Ironhold (specifically #34 and #41) in this thread. I didn't want to drag that thread off-topic, but I do think a discussion as to whether or not the LDS religion is legalistic and overbearing deserves its own thread.
I'd like to hear from any current members why/how it isn't, or from any former members why it is (if they feel that it is, of course; if they feel that it isn't, I'd like to hear about that, too). Thank you.
But they claim priesthood authority for mere members and that is probably when they should ask worthiness questions, not at baptism or membership.
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