IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

LoveGodsWord · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
The particular topic I was talking about recently was two different definitions of "lawlessness".

Posting reference materials that give the definition for how 1 John uses the related Greek word very much relates imo.

I have made my use, definition and application of the term "lawlessness" (without law) applied to my discussions with those who teach God's 10 commandments have been abolished very clear from the beginning in all my discussions. You would see this if you were following my posts and conversations through. See also post # 233 linked. Your trying to make the discussion about something I am not talking about.

SabbathBlessings · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Here's how it relates:

The train of thought I'm following is that there were two different definitions of "law" going on in this thread. This resulted in two different definitions of "lawlessness".

This resulted in people saying that what others said was false. And it was, according to the definitions that each was using.

(I will reiterate that it words do have common meanings and it's best to stick with those meanings when possible.)

In an attempt to move the discussion forward in an edifying way, I thought it would be good to resolve the definitions.

I understand now
(but I didn't up until about an hour ago)
that when you say "law" and "lawlessness" you are referring specifically to the ten commandments.

Would you agree that other people have at times been using those words differently in this thread?

The law 1 John 3:4 is anything that is still in effect. We will not be judged on having animal sacrifices because that law in the law of ordinances (ceremonial laws) ended with Jesus as our Perfect Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14

The law we will be judged on is the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12
lawlessness is referring to the Ten Commandments which is what points out sin. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged on James 2:10-12

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
I have made my use, definition and application of the term "lawlessness" (without law) applied to my discussions with those who teach God's 10 commandments have been abolished very clear from the beginning in all my discussions. You would see this if you were following my posts and conversations through. See also post # 233 linked. Your trying to make the discussion about something I am not talking about.

Yes, and I was just talking about how your definition of "lawlessness" was different from other people's definition.

LoveGodsWord · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes, and I was just talking about how your definition of "lawlessness" was different from other people's definition.

No it is different from your application as your not following the discussion and seeking to make the discussion about something I am not talking about

expos4ever · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
No it is different from your application as your not following the discussion and seeking to make the discussion about something I am not talking about

How can you not understand that "what you are talking about" does not magically change the standard definition of words?

LoveGodsWord · May 9, 2022

expos4ever said:
How can you not understand that "what you are talking about" does not magically change the standard definition of words?

It doesn't magically change definitions. I have supplied my application and dictionary definitions to lawlessness to your application of abolishing God's 10 commandments. Definitions here linked. I can understand why your seeking to change the topic now.

expos4ever · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
What word do you use to describe the condition of being without any law of any kind, laws from the scriptures or laws enacted by civil authorities?

I suggest the word "gef-shnivel-shnitz" since the word "lawlessness" has apparently been redefined.

So, yes, it seems we will need a new word to cover lawlessness in the standard dictionary sense.

LoveGodsWord · May 9, 2022

expos4ever said:
I suggest the word "gef-shnivel-shnitz" since the word "lawlessness" has apparently been redefined.

So, yes, it seems we will need a new word to cover lawlessness in the standard dictionary sense.

Not really dear friend. Dictionary definitions supplied here linked. My application and definitions to lawlessness are to your teachings in regards to abolishing God's 10 commandments which is a teachings of lawlessness (without law) that is not biblical. I have shared this with you from the start of our discussions so I have not left you any wiggle room here.

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
The law 1 John 3:4 is anything that is still in effect. We will not be judged on having animal sacrifices because that law in the law of ordinances (ceremonial laws) ended with Jesus as our Perfect Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14

The law we will be judged on is the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12
lawlessness is referring to the Ten Commandments which is what points out sin. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged on James 2:10-12

Actually, 1 John 3:4 doesn't contain the word "law". It contains the word "anomía"
(more about that in post 232).

The King James translators chose to turn that one word into three words, "transgression of the law". And then when people see "the law" they tend to associate that with some set of laws from the Old Testament.

But that's not necessarily the case.

That Greek word "anomía" is the "nomos" root, meaning law, and the "a" prefix, meaning "not".

Consider an English word that comes from greek, "atheist". Same idea, a+theist. An atheist strictly means one who doesn't believe in God or gods, but it also carries the connotation of a disbelief in the supernatural.

I think "anomía" probably carries the connotation of a lack of restraint, so that's why I think the passage is probably best understood as meaning that sin is the condition of being unrestrained.

SabbathBlessings · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Actually, 1 John 3:4 doesn't contain the word "law". It contains the word "anomía"
(more about that in post 232).

The King James translators chose to turn that one word into three words, "transgression of the law". And then when people see "the law" they tend to associate that with some set of laws from the Old Testament.

But that's not necessarily the case.

That Greek word "anomía" is the "nomos" root, meaning law, and the "a" prefix, meaning "not".

Consider an English word that comes from greek, "atheist". Same idea, a+theist. An atheist strictly means one who doesn't believe in God or gods, but it also carries the connotation of a disbelief in the supernatural.

I think "anomía" probably carries the connotation of a lack of restraint, so that's why I think the passage is probably best understood as meaning that sin is the condition of being unrestrained.

From 1 John 3:4

lawlessness
ἀνομίαν (anomian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 458: Lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin. From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or wickedness.

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
No it is different from your application as your not following the discussion and seeking to make the discussion about something I am not talking about

Yes, your definitions of "Law" and "lawlessness" are different from mine. I believe your definitions were also different from the definitions other people were using, as well.

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
From 1 John 3:4

lawlessness
ἀνομίαν (anomian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 458: Lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin. From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or wickedness.

Absolutely! And that would apply to all sorts of laws, wouldn't it? It may include the ten commandments, or it may not.

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
lawlessness
/ˈlɔːləsnəs/
noun

a state of disorder due to a disregard of the law.
"the country's descent into lawlessness"

LAW'LESSNESS, noun The quality or state of being unrestrained by law; disorder.

1: not regulated by or based on law
being without law; uncontrolled by a law; unbridled; unruly; unrestrained
the fact that laws do not exist, or are not obeyed or respected

Lawlessness is a lack of law, in any of the various senses of that word.

It is against the law in North Korea to insult the leader.

If you insult the leader of North Korea, are you necessarily lawless?

SabbathBlessings · May 9, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Absolutely! And that would apply to all sorts of laws, wouldn't it? It may include the ten commandments, or it may not.

Thats a bit of a different statement than this:

Leaf473 said:
Actually, 1 John 3:4 doesn't contain the word "law".

I think your question has been answered here a few times.

It includes the Ten Commandments because sin is breaking them quoting directly from the Ten. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

expos4ever · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear friend. Dictionary definitions supplied here linked.

I trust you realize that these dictionary definitions make no reference to the 10 commandments.

SabbathBlessings · May 9, 2022

expos4ever said:
I trust you realize that these dictionary definitions make no reference to the 10 commandments.

Why would anyone use a man-made book when God's scriptures, the Holy Bible is the authority of His Word- not man

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Thats a bit of a different statement than this:

I think your question has been answered here a few times.

It includes the Ten Commandments because sin is breaking them quoting directly from the Ten. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

You are correct that the two quotes of mine that you post are different. The particular Greek word for "law" does not appear in the passage, but the passage could apply to many different laws.

Even if (and it's a big if)
Romans says that breaking the ten commandments is sin, it doesn't mean that the writer of 1 John was using the word anomia the same way.

In addition to that, the word "law" doesn't refer to the same set of laws everywhere in the scriptures.

expos4ever · May 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Why would anyone use a man-made book when God's scriptures, the Holy Bible is the authority of His Word- not man

I suspected someone would say something like this.

The obvious rejoinder is that the authors of scripture used human languages made up of words with meanings that were defined before scripture was even penned.

Leaf473 · May 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Why would anyone use a man-made book when God's scriptures, the Holy Bible is the authority of His Word- not man

Hi SabbathBlessings,

I don't mean this to sound snarky in any way, but the direct answer is because language exists outside of the Bible. The writers of the scriptures made use of the common words that people at the time and place were using. We use things like dictionaries when people don't agree about the common meanings of words.

I believe you use the dictionary definition for "Sabbath rest" when discussing the passage in Hebrews. Am I remembering right?

That's my answer, but the writer of post 233 might give a different one.

Clare73 · May 9, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Does this apply to you or who are you talking about?

I give up. . .who?

IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

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