If Mary was sinless?

JJB · Jun 27, 2006

josh_676 said:
Mary is but a women. Catholics she is not god.

The RCC posters will deny that Mary is but a woman. You can tell by the names she is given by the RCC what they really think of her:

The mother of the members
of Christ"
Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, & Mediatrix
"Queen over all things"
Spouse of the Holy Spirit
Mary Queen of the Apostles
Queen of angels
Queen of prophets
Holy Mother of God
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mirror of justice
Seat of wisdom
Mystical rose
Tower of David
Morning star
Gate of heaven
Queen of peace
Queen of the universe
Cause of our joy
Glory of Israel
Ark of the covenant
Refuge of sinners

Edit: I meant to say "The RCC posters will not deny that Mary is but a woman. ...." I didn't want to change my first post as TLF responded to it.

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

OrthodoxyUSA said:
MARY was NOT created sinless. She was cleansed.

Forgive me....

Yes, at the momment of her conception.

Peace

Gal328 · Jun 27, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
If Mary was sinless, then how weird it must have been. She wouldn't have obeyed ANY of the laws of the day? Doesn't that make her sinfull? Not only that, but if she DID obey the laws, then she was being deceitfull. Even Jesus followed the 10 commandments, but he never had to have a sin atonment. Wouldn't someone wonder WHY Mary never had to do anything? Wouldn't that have been made a BIG deal, and certainly, it would have made it into the bible? If she was sinless, then why doesn't they bible come right out and say that?

That's because she wasn't sinless.

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

JJB said:
The RCC posters will deny that Mary is but a woman. You can tell by the names she is given by the RCC what they really think of her:

The mother of the members
of Christ"
Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, & Mediatrix
"Queen over all things"
Spouse of the Holy Spirit
Mary Queen of the Apostles
Queen of angels
Queen of prophets
Holy Mother of God
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mirror of justice
Seat of wisdom
Mystical rose
Tower of David
Morning star
Gate of heaven
Queen of peace
Queen of the universe
Cause of our joy
Glory of Israel
Ark of the covenant
Refuge of sinners

Yes, all wonderful titles of a mere mortal whom God chose to honor.

Peace

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

No 100% human with a both a human father and human mother is sinless, so what do Catholics think Mary is then?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Qiestion has been asked a million times and answered a million times here at CF . .

Why do the same people keep asking the same question?

Peace

JJB · Jun 27, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
Yes, all wonderful titles of a mere mortal whom God chose to honor.

Peace

Mary, was indeed a sinful human that God chose to honor. Why did she doubt Jesus when He was in the temple? That does not sound like a sinless woman's response.

However, those titles are .

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
Mary is but a women. Catholics she is not god.

It's insane isn't it. BTW, they can rebunk anything you say. This you will have to learn. We can't stop it you know. We can only fight it.

So, may I clafiry? Is this the purpose of this thread, to "fight it" ?

Peace

vrunca · Jun 27, 2006

JJB said:
The mother of the members
of Christ"
Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, & Mediatrix
"Queen over all things"
Spouse of the Holy Spirit
Mary Queen of the Apostles
Queen of angels
Queen of prophets
Holy Mother of God
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mirror of justice
Seat of wisdom
Mystical rose
Tower of David
Morning star
Gate of heaven
Queen of peace
Queen of the universe
Cause of our joy
Glory of Israel
Ark of the covenant
Refuge of sinners

Aren't those beautiful titles for Jesus' mom? And those aren't even close to half of them!!

Benedicta00 · Jun 27, 2006

Benedicta00 said:
Here is your scripture Chris.

God says to the serpent right here that he is going to create Mary free from sin.

The world’s savior will come through Mary’s saying yes to God.

Here the angel greets Mary who is to be the “new Eve”.

Here is where Mary gives her fiat. The head of Satan is crushed.

And here is her canticle. She says herself what God has done for her right here.

And then we see in Revelation Mary, she is the great ‘sign” that John sees in heaven. This sign is the same woman in Genesis. Satan was told this sign, 'the woman' will crush his head, so he goes after her who is Mary to get her and her child who is Jesus but check out how he can not reach her in order to stop her from bringing fourth our savior, check out how she was protected from him by God and when Satan can’t get Mary or Jesus, he wages war on us.

Chris, where art thou?

You asked for scripture and I gave it to you. This is the second time I give you scripture and you do not respond.

The last time was Exodus where God commands images of cherubs be made out of gold to adore his temple. You said he commanded us to not make a graven image of anything in heaven but yet God turned around and did just that, asked us to make a graven image of cherubs who reside in heaven.

So I’m really awaiting a response pertaining to this from you.

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Well that's fine but we "you" and "I" are posting in this thread aren't we? Then simply tell why why "you" think why the verses "I" have quoted don't apply to Mary who was obviously human and had a human mother and father.

Have you never had this question answered before for you here at CF?

I could have sworn you had . but perhaps I am wrong . . . .

Peace

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

JJB said:
Mary, was indeed a sinful human that God chose to honor. Why did she doubt Jesus when He was in the temple? That does not sound like a sinless woman's response.

Aren't you confusing impeccablitiy with omniscience?

They are not the same at all . . .

So your argument is a Non-Sequitur . . the conclusion does not follow . .

In other words, it does not follow that becaue one is sinless, impeccable, that one must also be omiscient.

I am sure you see your error now and understand that the question is not logically valid.

However, those titles are .

Are what?

Beautiful? Yes, very beautiful.

Peace

ThreeAM · Jun 27, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
Have you never had this question answered before for you here at CF?

I could have sworn you had . but perhaps I am wrong . . . .

Peace

Then you would be wrong...again.

FreeinChrist · Jun 27, 2006

Benedicta00 said:
Chris, where art thou?

You asked for scripture and I gave it to you. This is the second time I give you scripture and you do not respond.

The last time was Exodus where God commands images of cherubs be made out of gold to adore his temple. You said he commanded us to not make a graven image of anything in heaven but yet God turned around and did just that, asked us to make a graven image of cherubs who reside in heaven.

So Im really awaiting a response pertaining to this from you.

Exd 25:17 "You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and one and a half cubits wide.
Exd 25:18 "You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exd 25:19 "Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim {of one piece} with the mercy seat at its two ends.
Exd 25:20 "The cherubim shall have {their} wings spread upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be {turned} toward the mercy seat.
Exd 25:21 "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you.
Exd 25:22 "There I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel.

IMHO, it is an abuse of the above scripture to use it to support the use of statues and icons as they are made these days. God commanded the cherubim be on His mercy seat because He was giving the pattern - the pattern being after the throne in heaven.
NO ONE kneeled to the cherubim or prayed to the cherubim. Instead, it was the Shekinah Glory -God Almighty Himself- that hovered over the mercy seat that caused awe and fear. It was God alone who was prayed to.

And in giving the order to make those cherubim, God didn't recind His commandments.

vrunca · Jun 27, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
Beautiful? Yes, very beautiful.
Peace

They are very beautiful...TLF, do you happen to know how many titles there are for The Blessed Mother? I found a site that has 333 of the most loving and beautiful titles, but I always heard there were much more than that. What a nice way to address Jesus' mom!!

Lynn73 · Jun 27, 2006

Benedicta00 said:

God says to the serpent right here that he is going to create Mary free from sin.

Click to expand...

Huh??? You get that out of that Scripture? Uh, sorry but I don't. And it is the seed of the woman (Jesus), Eve, that crushes Satan's head, not Mary. And the woman in Revelation is Israel, not Mary, the twelve stars representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

FreeinChrist · Jun 27, 2006

Benedicta00 said:
Here is your scripture Chris.

God says to the serpent right here that he is going to create Mary free from sin.

The scripture given:

Genesis 3: 15 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed:

No, it doesn't say she will be sinless.

The worlds savior will come through Marys saying yes to God.

That the Savior came through mary is not disputed, but the scripture you provided reads differently for Catholics in the Douay-rheims than for Protestants:

Your post has it:
she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel

KJV
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

NASB
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Whose heel was 'bruised" or pierced? The Son's - not the mother's.

Here the angel greets Mary who is to be the new Eve.

The scripture you provided:
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

I don't see that she is called the "new Eve". You are adding that interpretation to the verse. IMHO

Here is where Mary gives her fiat. The head of Satan is crushed.

The scripture you provided:
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Again, you added your interpretation to the verse. Eisegesis. Satan's head wasn't crushed at that time, nor does that verse say that. In fact, his head is yet to be crushed - need to wait for the Antichrist to be defeated.

And here is her canticle. She says herself what God has done for her right here.

The scripture you provided:
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

Again, to assume sinlessness out of that is adding to the verse.

And then we see in Revelation Mary, she is the great sign that John sees in heaven. This sign is the same woman in Genesis. Satan was told this sign, 'the woman' will crush his head, so he goes after her who is Mary to get her and her child who is Jesus but check out how he can not reach her in order to stop her from bringing fourth our savior, check out how she was protected from him by God and when Satan cant get Mary or Jesus, he wages war on us.

Actually that is all interpretation too. Doesn't say she is sinless either.
The woman is Israel.....that is why the stars and moon and sun. Familiar with Joseph's dream where the stars represent his brothers and the sun and moon, Israel and his wife? Christ was promised as coming from Israel, the line Judah and through the line of David. Mary was the one to be the mother of Christ, but she isn't what is referred to in Rev. 12.

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Obviously I want to be able to debate what I think is error when posted. I view this forum as a two way exchange of ideas. If you can't give a answer for your beliefs and why they disagree with the inspired words of Paul then you probably have no place posting in this thread at all.

So, may I clarify? The purpose of your question is not to gain information so you can better understand our faith, but so you can initiate yet another of the many debates on the same question ?

Doesn't that presume you already have an answer in mind and are ready to attack it in debate?

Just a little constuctive this is the scriptures that say Mary was sinless would be helpful but I guess that is to much to ask for. Oh Well.

When you are able to show us where the bible actually states that

The Holy Spirit is

Co-equal with the Father and the Son
Co-eternal with the Father and the Son
Co-pre-existing with the Father and the Son

Then your demand that we show you scripture that say Mary was sinless will have merit.

Until then, since by posting in thi section of CF you are declaring you believe in the Trinity, which includes those 3 beliefs about the Holy Spirit above but for which there is abssolutely NO sciripture which states these three beliefs, your requirement is no more than a double standard and thus a LOGICAL FALLACY.

In other words, your requirement iof us is logically invalid.

I await your providing scripture which states these three beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit, upon which I will concede your requirement of us is valid.

Until then I wait . . . . .

I do not wait with baited breath.

Peace

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

Lynn73 said:
There are no Scriptures that support Mary being sinless. It's an assumption because of certain preconceived human idea on how things have to be. You will probably get certain Scriptures put forth as implying it, but imho nothing even implies such a thing and we have something to tell us that she isn't. Namely, that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. No exception clauses are seen for Mary and that should be the end of it.

Of course, just because your interpretation of scripture doesn't allow for it, doesn't mean it is not supported by scripture.

Unitarians clam the scriptures do not support Trinitarian beliefs, however, that doesn't mean it is not supported by scripture.

Peace

thereselittleflower · Jun 27, 2006

Yep

I find that when people can't prove their doctrine from the scripture the next step is usually KILL THE MESSENGER! To sit around in a thread and not add constructive information but rather just personalizing your critisisims is just Kill the Messenger mentality.

Responding in general to the thread:

I don't see any "killing the messenger" from the Catholic side going on . .

I do see quite a bit of necessary clearing out of straw and other nonconstructive offerings cluttering the room so we can deal with the real issues . . but it just keeps building up as fast as we try to clear it out . .

The real issues are what need to be focused on. . but as long as strawman arguments, such as Mary is a god as far as Catholics are concerend, or like sinlessness = omniscience, keep getting offered by various posters randomly throughou the thread, it gets very hard to have any type of constructive discussion.

When people are more interested in the real issues rather than erecting strawman and other logical fallacies, maybe we can have an actual constructive discussion . until then, I don't see how. . .

Peace

ThreeAM · Jun 27, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
So, may I clarify? The purpose of your question is not to gain information so you can better understand our faith, but so you can initiate yet another of the many debates on the same question ?

Doesn't that presume you already have an answer in mind and are ready to attack it in debate.

Pressumes facts not in evidence

I have never discussed this issue on any other forum prior to this thread.

TLF said:
When you are able to show us where the bible actually states that
The Holy Spirit is

Co-equal with the Father and the Son

Co-eternal with the Father and the Son

Co-pre-existing with the Father and the Son

Then your demand that we show you scripture that say Mary was sinless will have merit.

Until then, since by posting in thi section of CF you are declaring you believe in the Trinity, which includes those 3 beliefs about the Holy Spirit above but for which there is abssolutely NO sciripture which states these three beliefs, your requirement is no more than a double standard and thus a LOGICAL FALLACY.

In other words, your requirement iof us is logically invalid.

I await your providing scripture which states these three beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit, upon which I will concede your requirement of us is valid.

Until then I wait . . . . .

I do not wait with baited breath.

Peace

STRAWMAN and not the topic of the OP so needs no response.

Want to get back on topic TLF ?

If Mary was sinless?

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