If Mary was sinless?

Crazy Liz · Jul 1, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
If the NASB is hte most word for word translation, why doesn't it use "IT" ??

In the Hebrew it is NEUTER . . it is NEITHER he nor she . . it is "IT"

"IT" is open to interpretation.

Peace

I don't know exactly what verse you're talking about, but I do know there is no neuter gender in the Hebrew language.

cathmomof3 · Jul 1, 2006

mesue said:
So, then, it IS the Holy Spirit that teaches. Please make up your mind, you said it was the church.

The holy spirit teaches through the church and the ordained magisterium. The magisterium does not just make up stuff. They are led by the Holy Spirit.

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

judaica said:
The only post I found so far, was one you already responsed too:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3113818-if-mary-was-sinless.html&page=56

Which was in turn a response to Tall: http://www.christianforums.com/t3113818-if-mary-was-sinless.html&page=42

(As I told Tall, I kinda got in on the tail end of this conversation, so it's very possible I misunderstood your argument. (I only read the link, for whatever I missed))

I responded to your response with an apology if I misunderstood your argument. But I was not really ignoring anything (this thread is really too difficult to follow).

LOL I agree! It is getting so convoluted in places. . .

I do want to respond to your response to AWC:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3113818-if-mary-was-sinless.html&page=57

From the link:

Again? Whose "our"?

The Catholic Church. I refer to we for these arguments are ours . .that of Catholics . .

This is simply unfair, and I resent you saying this. I don't know if Mary remained sinless or not. I don't have a stake in this debate. I am not ignoring facts. As I said, this thread is very hard for me to follow.

Huh?

Did you or did you not say this:

Okay I see. Well the statement made by TLF is illogical. I don't mean that as a slur against her, it's philosophically illogical. If Mary had to be sinless in order for Christ to be sinless, then we'd have to (to be logically consistent) say the same about Mary's mom and back and back and back til we got to Eve.

You made this assertion, right?

My comment was addressing your assertion above, not whether or not you personally beleived Mary was sinless or not . . . why did you jump to that conclusion?

Look at what you said above . . THAT is what I was addressing . . . . NOTHING else. . .

I was simply saying that for someone to come to this conclusion and make this assertion, one has to ignore what we have already presented numerous times in evidence that contradicts assertion.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I understood your original argument to be saying that it was necessary that Mary be sinless in order for Christ to be sinless.

I said it was necessary for Mary to have an unfallen human nature to naturally pass on an unfallen human nature to Christ so that Chist would not have needed a savior in order to have an unfallen human nature at HIS conception.

See above.

Then, see above.

Because, this thread is too freakin long! TLF! Stop accusing me of not taking things into account. I have no agenda in this...no stakes...I just like talking about Mary.

OK . . I hope you can understand that repeating ourselves over and over and over again, because some doesn't read the thread can be bothersome to us We repeat ourselves a lot, and it gets tiring .. . please forgive me if I came across harshly in any way.

Whatever. If you would like we can start another thread and you can explain your argument to me one on one (relatively speaking) without 70 some odd pages of replies. That would be nice. As for me, I'm out of this thread, it's got me so turned around and confused I'm ready to pull my hair out just trying to keep up.

Judaica

I honestly sympathize . . I know how it feels ..

If you want to start a thread in the sub forum here . . the denominational specific forum, then we can discuss one on one without all of the mess that occurs here in the main forum in GT . . just specify that only CATHOLICS are allowed to respond and participate . . .

It will be much, much nicer than a thread like this here in GT.

Peace

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

HowardDean said:
Its not true. The true church has no denomintion.
I do not deny the church, just your denom, your interpretation of it.

Well you know, denominations are a phenomena of protestantism . . so Catholicism is not a denomination. . . neither is Orthodoxy

Peace

icedtea · Jul 1, 2006

cathmomof3 said:
The holy spirit teaches through the church and the ordained magisterium. The magisterium does not just make up stuff. They are led by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit teaches and doesn't even need the catholic church to help. We are all led by the Holy Spirit, even those not in your church.

icedtea · Jul 1, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
Well you know, denominations are a phenomena of protestantism . . so Catholicism is not a denomination. . . neither is Orthodoxy

Peace

You are saying the catholic church is the only church. You are also saying all other churches are invalid and not Christian.
We know its not true.

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

Crazy Liz said:
The Bible does not say Mary had other children.

Even though I do not believe Mary was sinless, nor do I hold an opinion one way or another about Mary's perpetual virginity (as there is not sufficient evidence either way to convince me) I do find it more plausible that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Joseph's children by a previous marriage. More and more Evangelical NT scholars are coming to this opinion. I have discussed this at length before. If you would like to discuss it in detail again, I would prefer that it be in a thread dedicated to that topic and not one as general as this one. It's hard for me to keep up in a thread this broad and fast-moving.

Thank you Crazy Liz for your unbiased and honest appraisal.

Peace

calmcoolandelected · Jul 1, 2006

cathmomof3 said:
The holy spirit teaches through the church and the ordained magisterium. The magisterium does not just make up stuff. They are led by the Holy Spirit.

Hmmm.....scratching head and remember post #581, #588....

How can ANYONE know what is the correct interpretation? (Hint - See post #583)

CC&E

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

mesue said:
So, then, it IS the Holy Spirit that teaches. Please make up your mind, you said it was the church.

Make up my mind about what?

I never said the Holy Spirit doesn't teach. . . Why are you suggesting I have?

Peace

cathmomof3 · Jul 1, 2006

HowardDean said:
The Holy Spirit teaches and doesn't even need the catholic church to help. We are all led by the Holy Spirit, even those not in your church.

I agree that we are all led by the Holy Spirit. But, some are led by the Holy Spirit in a unique way to discern the truth by their office ie, apostolic succession. There are thousands and thousands of different interpretations...

Debi1967 · Jul 1, 2006

Cyberdyne1 said:
I never heard of this guy so I "googled" him.

Nice Pope... http://www.answers.com/topic/pope-alexander-vi

Yes it is pretty disgusting, this I will not deny

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

Crazy Liz said:
I don't know exactly what verse you're talking about, but I do know there is no neuter gender in the Hebrew language.

The King James version it is "IT"

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15 And I will put7896 enmity342 between996 thee and the woman,802 and between996 thy seed2233 and her seed;2233 it 1931 shall bruise7779 thy head,7218 and thou859 shalt bruise7779 his heel.6119

The Hebrew is:

H1931
היא / הוּא
hû' / hîy'
BDB Definition
(Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Definitions):
1) he, she, it (pronoun third person singular)
1a) himself (with emphasis)
1b) resuming subject with emphasis
1c) (with minimum emphasis following predicate)
1d) (anticipating subject)
1e) (emphasizing predicate)
1f) that, it (neuter)
2) that (with article) (demonstrative pronoun)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strongs Number: a primitive word
Same Word by TWOT Number: 480

H1931
היא הוּא
hû' hîy'
hoo, he
The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun singular, he (she or it); only expressed when emphatic or without a verb; also (intensively) self, or (especially with the article) the same; sometimes (as demonstrative) this or that; occasionally (instead of copula) as or are: - he, as for her, him (-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (. . . it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who.

Now, looking the word as used in the OT in the KJV concordance:

H1931
היא / הוּא
hû' / hîy'
Total KJV Occurrences: 224

this, 71

same, 67

which, 33

who, 23

himself, 20

these, 3

beginning, 2

those, 2

much, 1

such, 1

whose, 1

These are primarily neuter though there is no separate neuter pronoun in the Hebrew.

Peace

FreeinChrist · Jul 1, 2006

Benedicta00 said:
Do you realize we are talking before time? Before the foundations???

This was a vision given to John of how and why Satan fell.

Because he would not serve a human being (Jesus) Humans are considered to be lower than he.

And he was furious to know Mary a human being would be call Queen of heaven.

Where are you getting this?

FreeinChrist · Jul 1, 2006

Benedicta00 said:
Are you really going to deny that Revelation was a vision given to John showing him what happened, what was happening and what will happen in the future?

One doesn't have to deny that at all to disgree with your interpretation or to see that you have waffled in your interpretation.

thereselittleflower · Jul 1, 2006

HowardDean said:
The Holy Spirit teaches and doesn't even need the catholic church to help.

OK . . then why did Jesus specifically and personally promise the Apostles that they would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit?

Why did the Early Church need teachers?

If they all had the Holy Spirit, then why were their Apostles to lead the Church?

See, your logic has to hold all the way, or it doesn't hold.

We are all led by the Holy Spirit, even those not in your church.

Of course all Chirstians are led by the Holy Spirit.

But do we have the ability to understand the Holy Spirit's leading infallibly individually?

I have to be honest and say no . . .

Peace

GraceInHim · Jul 1, 2006

Mod NOTE

Closing thread - so many complaints

Thread has run it's course.

This is the second time Thread has been closed, Mod Notes stated to post within the rules.

Thread will now remain closed.

God Bless

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