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Benedicta00 said:Mary did that.
14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This is too compelling to ignore or write off.
HowardDean said:"And made war against the rest of her seed?" So Mary did have other children!
No... We know John is a book of symbolism. How does the place in the dessert that kept the face of the serpent from the woman and the earth helping the women by heading off the devil apply to Israel specifically?Where did she get taken into the desert?
You are grasping at straws here.
Your other post states it WAS Mary. Now you are waffling.Benedicta00 said:And for the recorded, there is no set in stone Revelation is to be interpreted. It can be Israel as well as Mary.
No we do not. This is just your opinion. Sorry you feel that way- sorry you still do not know us well.HowardDean said:Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end.
The catholic church takes its eyes off Him onto her.
Anyone want to take that on?Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Now watch my prophetic powers as I prophecy that the Roman Catholics will spiritualize that part saying that the "other seed" is the Church, while they maintain a literal interpretation that the "woman" is Mary.
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Would you like to respond to "And made war against the rest of her seed?" Either Mary had other children, or the "woman" is Israel!Benedicta00 said:No we do not. This is just your opinion. Sorry you feel that way- sorry you still do not know us well.
Excellent !!!HowardDean said:Would you like to respond to "And made war against the rest of her seed?" Either Mary had other children, or the "woman" is Israel!
No, there is no dichotomies here. There is NO either/or, there is the both/and.HowardDean said:Your other post states it WAS Mary. Now you are waffling.
Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:In reality, the word used does mean, "blood brothers" and not "cousins". A different word is used for "cousins".
Therefore, the premise of it saying "cousins" is a false premise, and a concoction invvented to try to justify errors.
double talk!Benedicta00 said:No, there is no dichotomies here. There is NO either/or, there is the both/and.
Jesus is the fullness of God's word, not your church!Benedicta00 said:when I do and in believing this is a reference to Mary and not specifically to Israel is not contradicting the Church which is the fullness of Gods word.
What more could you want?
But to respond to Judaica's post here:
Okay I see. Well the statement made by TLF is illogical. I don't mean that as a slur against her, it's philosophically illogical. If Mary had to be sinless in order for Christ to be sinless, then we'd have to (to be logically consistent) say the same about Mary's mom and back and back and back til we got to Eve. As I think you've kinda been saying or asking or whatever.Again, Judaica , , you have misunderstood our argument.
You are simply ignoring facts inevidence that disprove your assertion.
If Mary's parent's had to be also sinless, then Mary would not have needed a savior to be sinless.
But, we teach Mary needed a savior, that means she could not have NATURALLY inherited an unwounded human nature, a human nature free from the stain of Adam's sin, from her parents. . .
so, nothing illogical about what I said at all, philosophically or otherwise .. .
You are simply failing to take into accout ALL our argument and what we have presented.
Your argument above is a logical fallacy known as a NON SEQUITUR . . the conclusion simply does not follow
Benedicta00 said:No, there is no dichotomies here. There is NO either/or, there is the both/and.
It can be seen either way because John has never been infallibly interpreted. But one does not contradict the other.
As a Catholic I am free to read the bible and believe based on what I read but what I can not do is contradict the teaching of the Church when I do and in believing this is a reference to Mary and not specifically to Israel is not contradicting the Church which is the fullness of Gods word.
Look, you asked for scripture and I gave it to you. What more do you want?
Read Genesis 3 15. God said he was going to put enmities between the womans seed and the serpents seed. And SHE will crush his head while he lies in wait of HER heel. In the original language.
What more could you want?
So the serpent had a physical child. hmBenedicta00 said:Read Genesis 3 15. God said he was going to put enmities between the womans seed and the serpents seed.
HowardDean said:Would you like to respond to "And made war against the rest of her seed?" Either Mary had other children, or the "woman" is Israel!
HowardDean said:Would you like to respond to "And made war against the rest of her seed?" Either Mary had other children, or the "woman" is Israel!
Vice versa.Benedicta00 said:Do you see how you all are? You read just what you want and see just what you want.
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