Papias - I was not saying you ARE a deist, simply that the case you presented SOUNDED deistic in nature. That is all.
Yep, all good. Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been busy with a response in the formal debate about the RCC and evolution. I just posted there.
About your last post - you brought in a whole bunch of new issues, without simply answering my question about whether you, as what I described as an "A" type Christian, can see the B view. Here is my description again for your convenience:
Papias wrote:
If you subscribe to view A (what you call "typical Christianity"), then every discovery of science makes God more distant. In that view, God because a shrinking god, who as you point out, disappears. Obstetrics removes God from making babies, Gravity removes God from directing the planets, evolution removes God from the creation, pharmacology and brain science remove our souls from our minds, geology removes God from making the earth, Astronomy removes God from making the heavens, etc. They see faith as an effort of sheer will, where they need to keep pretending to believe what they know isnt true, which becomes ever more difficult as science reveals the details of every aspect of our lives. Faith becomes a losing, and embittering, battle. So of course those with view A can either deny the real world, denying all these sciences, and implicitly endorsing ignorance and fear, or the person with view A can become an atheist. Its obvious why those with view A can get so bitter, venomous, and fearful. I probably would too, if I felt my very world were threatened. I understand their feelings.
However, for those of us with view B, every discovery of science further show the hand of God, the glory of God. Thats why we dont flee from science, be that astronomy, pharmacology, genetics or evolution. By showing us more of the acts of God that God is doing all the time (indeed, which allow my brain to think to type this!), God becomes more great every day. Faith in God becomes not only easier, but unavoidable. Which science at every turn showing God to be more and more glorious, having faith in God becomes as unstoppable as breathing.
If that is starting to make some sense (Im again not asking you to shift to view B, but only to understand how someone myself and millions of other Chrisitans feels when holding it.), then perhaps read post #5 again, and see it that works better now.
Er72, does that help?
Could you please respond to that before the other topics? After doing so, here is my response to some of those other topics:
er72 wrote:
Now, as for evolution, for me it's really a non-issue.
With all due respect, from your posts on CF over the past several days, it has sounded like it is indeed a big issue for you.
For me, to say that humans are related to monkeys / apes / primates / other animals cheapens man's existence
Compared to being made of dirt? I'll pick a monkey over dirt any day. Is not any creation of God, regardless of the starting material, a glorious thing?
If we're nothing but a glorified monkey, then how do we have a soul? Did we evolve one? How can we evolve a soul or a spirit? Maybe we don't even have one (if we accept this theory as true).
God divinely created and gave Adam a soul, so we, as his descendants, have one. See my longer description here, which they have hopefully posted by now.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7554304/#post57357404
If man is nothing but a monkey (I know it's not technically accurate, but humor me), then should man be forbidden from intermarrying with other animals? After all, he is nothing but an animal, right? Why or why not? And don't write this question off as "absurd" because it DOES have legitimate implications.
God crafted morality in us as well. The process used evolution, and is well described in the book by Robert Wright, the Moral Animal. You may want to read that to see how the process works. That morality covers things like murder, fairness, justice, also.
Second, why does God have to be involved in the process? Who says? It certainly isn't in the Bible! No.
Your Bible as well as mine (they are quite different btw), do indeed say God is involved in the process - see Heb. 1:3, and so on. As a Christian, I say he is, you can choose what you want.
The Bible says God created man in His image, not in the image and likeness of Koko the Monkey. But to each his own, yes?
Spiritual image - otherwise you have to ask if God has dark skin, is 5' 11" tall, has hazel eyes, and other such nonsense.
Now, you must understand that while SOME Christians may believe in evolution, ALL atheists believe in evolution.
Now, you must understand that while SOME Christians may believe in a moving earth, ALL atheists believe in a moving earth.
Our various Bibles all describe a fixed earth if read literally. There are even Christians who advocate a flat earth for this reason.
The Earth Is Not Moving
Evolution is no different from the idea that the Earth moves. Both are contradicted by a literal reading of our scripture, both are established beyond a shadow of a doubt by modern evidence, and in both cases, there are groups of Christians that deny them, making Christianity look silly.
Anyhow, we can try to synergize God and religion or faith and say that somehow He was magically behind it all, but we have zero evidence for that. How do we even know it would be the Christian God? Why not Allah, or Zeus, or Odin or Shiva? Why are we certain that's the Christian God? Just asking; I think it's a fair question.
As a Christian, I answer God. I agree you can answer as you wish.
The deist explanation probably makes the most sense, if someone were to accept the theory of evolution as indisputable fact and ultimate truth. Now of course, I don't do that, but if I did, then deism is probably the best explanation. Why attempt to somehow credit God for things which He may or may not have even been involved with? For all we know, perhaps the Big Bang arose out of God sneezing or something. Hey, there's a theory.
Except that it ignores scripture.
Ultimately, I believe it cheapens the meaning of being made as a divine-like being to say that man is nothing more than an advanced ape. How does saying this universe was made by completely natural means (or at least, human life as having evolved) bring ANY glory to God? I can't see how it does.
This paragraph suggestst that you still don't seem to understand the point of all my posts on this thread, which was the A vs B snippet I pasted at the start of this post.
I hope all this helps, but I'm begging to suspect that it doesn't.
Have a good day anyway-
Papias