if its "new"....

[Hedgehog]

Im not sure where Im going with this, so I hope someone can see what I mean even though I dont know exactly what to ask. LOL

Paul says
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ok , so if there is something that is " new"... what is new?

If the church exsisted through out all ages... what is new?

I know its new that gentiles are grafted in etc..

But is it new that we ( people, any people I mean, Jew or Gentile) are considered the temple?
Id assume so as it does say Jesus would build the last temple , right? Im assuming that is talking about the spiritual temple.

So if Jesus built this temple of faithful people- was there no"temple" of faithful people in the old covenant/ethnic Israel days?( I now at times there was a literal temple) If they werent called the "temple" at that time, what were the actual "saved" people called.
I dont mean " Israel" because, just because they were a people God originally worked with, not all were saved.
So what were the saved ones called then? The remnant?

Would "the remnant" (even of today) be the ethnic Hebrews who were saved, so now days they would be a part of the "temple", yet the "remnant" part? does that make sense? LOL

What does this mean?
Psa 79:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.

If the "real" temple is the group of people who have faith- one doesnt have access to the "temple" UNLESS you are a person with faith...... then how can the temple be defiled? One can not fake their faith..
Do you see what I mean?

Is this "heathen" people really speaking of Israel, the ones who had no faith?
as opposed to how His temple can now not be defiled, because only people who are His have access?

 

[Hedgehog]

what about this?

Jer 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, [are] these.

what lying words is this talking about?

 

[Hedgehog]

something else..

Im asking especially those who believe we are currently under the new covenant.

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

ok, we would say the temple is built/being built.
Would we say he CURRENTLY is the priest/high priest?Of course we would if he intercedes and brings peace between mankind and God.
We would definately say he has already brought peace between us and God....wouldnt we?
Does that mean he is currently sitting and ruling upon His throne?

 

[Hedgehog]

Ok, so I am asking a few to many questions LOL

Zec 6:15 And they [that are] far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Obviously this is spoken to Israel, still under the old covenant.
it says those that are far off(gentiles I assume) will come and build in the temple IF they( Israel?) will diligently obey the voice of the Lord...... did they diligently obey than??


and this could be read literally, AND spiritually....

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

We know Jesus went into the temple and spoke, but it does say HIS temple.
But we know He built the spiritual temple also.

so would there be any deeper spiritual meanig to this?

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

because we know the REAL spiritual city is not earthly Jerusalem. It is saved faithful people.

The reason why I am asking is because I feel like the abomination of desolation has already happened.
I just cant put my finger on what bad thing standing in the holy place would be... I feel like Satan entered into...the temple or something....
Y'all will think Im nuts but I feel like he indwelt Jesus or something at some point. I know that sounds blasphemous to say, but Jesus did take on all sin, by taking on all sin, was that Satan in Him?

Another reason why I feel like this is because Rev. says
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Generally, " the sun" symbolizes the Son... and if it says an angel was standing IN the sun.....what is that saying?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Intersting post HH.

I'll comment on one point in question...

what were the actual "saved" people called. So what were the saved ones called then? The remnant?

The Redeemed
"O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Let the redeemed of the LORD say so" Psalms 107:1

His Sheep
"For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. " Ezek 34:11

The Just
"But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. " Proverbs 4:18

The Faithful
"O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful" Psalms 31:23

His Saints
"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever" Psalms 37:28

His Elect
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him" Isaiah 42:1

His Servants
"And thus they returned us answer, saying, We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth" Ezra 5:11

His Followers
"And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him" I Kings 18:21

The Righteous
"The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles." Psalms 34:17

The Children of the Lord
"Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1

Believers
"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established" 2 Chronicles 20:20

 

[Hedgehog]

"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever" Psalms 37:28

speaking of this- I wonder also why Jesus said " My God , My God why have you forsaken me"
The dictionary definition: : to renounce or turn away from entirely
Was He really forsaken?
If He wasnt, do we assume that Jesus didnt know He wasnt really forsaken?
Why wouldnt He know?Why would He ask?

 

[Dave Taylor]

speaking of this- I wonder also why Jesus said " My God , My God why have you forsaken me"
The dictionary definition: : to renounce or turn away from entirely
Was He really forsaken?
If He wasnt, do we assume that Jesus didnt know He wasnt really forsaken?
Why wouldnt He know?Why would He ask?

Jesus was doing a 'play on words' to the listening fools who didn't believe Him; and who crucified Him...one final vindiction that He was who He said He was.

He was not claiming that God had forsaken Him; but was teaching them again, and one final time; that 'they' had forsaken Him...and that He was the Messiah!

He did this by quoting Psalm 22 of which this verse originated from; knowing that they would be familiar with it.

Likewise, by bringing Psalm 22 into focus for the crowd; Jesus also brought to mind all of the Messianic prophecies from Psalm 22 that were being fulfilled at that very moment in time, right under their own eyes!

Messianic Psalm 22 v1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Messianic Psalm 22 v7
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Messianic Psalm 22 v14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Messianic Psalm 22 v15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws

Messianic Psalm 22 v16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Messianic Psalm 22 v17
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Messianic Psalm 22 v18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Messianic Psalm 22 v22
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church will I praise thee.

Messianic Psalm 22 v24
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him

Messianic Psalm 22 v29
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him



Imagine, all of these Messianic Psalms being fulfilled right under their eyes, standing upon Golgotha watching the Saviour of the world die...and all of them being brought immediately to their minds, when Jesus shouted out verse 1 of Psalms 22, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Paul says
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ok , so if there is something that is " new"... what is new?

If the church exsisted through out all ages... what is new?

I know its new that gentiles are grafted in etc..

One of the key issues of what is "new" is the indwelling Holy Spirit. The OT recorded future promises of the new covenant, one of which includes God promising to place His Spirit within His people. These passages often contrast the new covenant with the old, even though the old (Mosaic) covenant was still in effect at the time. The Holy Spirit is extremely important to the book of Acts, where Jesus said:
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Read the book of Acts with an eye toward the Holy Spirit, and it will be seen that it is in fact the Holy Spirit who "guides" the disciples from Jerusalem and Judea to Samaria and into the furthest extents of the Roman Empire. Paul regarded himself as a servant/minister of the new covenant - a covenant he said is not based on the letter (Mosaic covenant) but on the Spirit (new covenant - a reference to its promise Jer 31:31-34; Ezek 36:26). 2 Corinthians 3:6.

But is it new that we ( people, any people I mean, Jew or Gentile) are considered the temple?
Id assume so as it does say Jesus would build the last temple , right? Im assuming that is talking about the spiritual temple.

We are considered the temple of God because of God's presence - the indwelling Holy Spirit. In the OT, God's presence was in the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem.

There are some specific contrasts between the church and Israel under the Mosaic covenant. All members of the church are considered priests, while for those under the Mosaic covenant priestly functions were limited to those descended from Aaron (Aaronic priesthood), Levi (Levites), or the Davidic line. Even then, the functions of each were limited and/or specific. All in the church offer spiritual sacrifices, while those under the Mosaic covenant had to offer specific, prescribed sacrifices at the temple of the LORD.

So if Jesus built this temple of faithful people- was there no"temple" of faithful people in the old covenant/ethnic Israel days?( I now at times there was a literal temple) If they werent called the "temple" at that time, what were the actual "saved" people called.
I dont mean " Israel" because, just because they were a people God originally worked with, not all were saved.
So what were the saved ones called then? The remnant?

OT Israel was composed of saved persons (sometimes called the remnant of Israel in the OT) and unsaved persons. There were OT gentiles outside of Israel who were saved also. Together, the remnant of Israel and saved gentiles are simply called the redeemed.

Would "the remnant" (even of today) be the ethnic Hebrews who were saved, so now days they would be a part of the "temple", yet the "remnant" part? does that make sense? LOL

Yes, saved Jews (ethnic Hebrews) throughout the generations are referred to as the remnant of Israel.

What does this mean?
Psa 79:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.

If the "real" temple is the group of people who have faith- one doesnt have access to the "temple" UNLESS you are a person with faith...... then how can the temple be defiled? One can not fake their faith..
Do you see what I mean?

Is this "heathen" people really speaking of Israel, the ones who had no faith?
as opposed to how His temple can now not be defiled, because only people who are His have access?

"Heathen" is the Hebrew word goyim, and it refers to (gentile) nations here. The psalm is from the time of the exile, and verse 1 spoke of the physical destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. This destruction was led by Babylon and other nations participated in it.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

what about this?

Jer 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, [are] these.

what lying words is this talking about?

The Jews in the day of Jeremiah assumed God (the LORD) would never destroy Jerusalem because of the presence of His temple (see also Jer 7:14 and Micah 3:11). However God told Jeremiah to tell them they have made a false assumption: their injustice, idolatry, and other grevious sins were bringing God's wrath upon them. To underscore the point, God referred to the destruction of Shiloh: Shiloh was once a center of worship for the LORD but was destroyed because of the wickedness of the people at that time.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

something else..

Im asking especially those who believe we are currently under the new covenant.

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

ok, we would say the temple is built/being built.
Would we say he CURRENTLY is the priest/high priest?Of course we would if he intercedes and brings peace between mankind and God.

Yes, Jesus is currently our high priest. As Zechariah 6:13 pointed out and the author of Hebrews elaborated on Psalm 110, the Messiah (Jesus) functions as both king and priest.

We would definately say he has already brought peace between us and God....wouldnt we?

Yes, Romans 5:1 specifically states that since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does that mean he is currently sitting and ruling upon His throne?

Yes, Jesus is currently reigning over us: Psalm 110:1 says, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." There is an idea of an already but not-yet aspect of ruling here, which will not be complete or fulfilled until He comes again. For dispensationalists, this means a yet future millennial kingdom.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Ok, so I am asking a few to many questions LOL

Not a problem...I just hope my answers might be edifying in some way...

Zec 6:15 And they [that are] far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Obviously this is spoken to Israel, still under the old covenant.
it says those that are far off(gentiles I assume) will come and build in the temple IF they( Israel?) will diligently obey the voice of the Lord...... did they diligently obey than??

IMO "those who are far off" is most likely a reference to the Jews in the exile at the time of Zechariah's writing. It would have referred to the returning exiles from Babylon and other far off places under Ezra and Nehemiah. Remember that OT Gentile access and participation in the Mosaic covenant was very restricted, much less anything dealing with the temple. The only options for Gentiles to participate in the Mosaic covenant at this time was to become a Jew.

The reason why I am asking is because I feel like the abomination of desolation has already happened.
I just cant put my finger on what bad thing standing in the holy place would be... I feel like Satan entered into...the temple or something....
Y'all will think Im nuts but I feel like he indwelt Jesus or something at some point. I know that sounds blasphemous to say, but Jesus did take on all sin, by taking on all sin, was that Satan in Him?

No, there is nothing in Scripture which even remotely indicates that Satan indwelt Jesus at the cross. Jesus was both fully man and fully God - so it would be theologically impossible for God and Satan to co-exist at the same place and time. Also, while Satan tempted and tempts, Satan is not a personification of sin nor sin itself. For Christians, there are three specific enemies: sin, Satan, and the world. Sin (singular, commonly called the flesh in Scripture) is the inward enemy. Satan and the world are outward enemies; they may appeal to the sin within, but they always remain outward enemies.

If you feel the abomination of desolation has already occured, it would be better to read preterist views, as they also see the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31 and much of the Olivet Discourse) as past. Rather than me giving a few sketchy options, I'm confident this board has some good preterists who would be willing to share their views.

Another reason why I feel like this is because Rev. says
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Generally, " the sun" symbolizes the Son... and if it says an angel was standing IN the sun.....what is that saying?

It could be on or in, depending on how the preposition is translated from the Greek. Ancient Jewish tradition often identified angels with the sun. My observation is that the angel is "placed" on the sun because that is the highest point in the heavens from which all the birds can be called together at the feast.

 

[Hedgehog]

He did this by quoting Psalm 22 of which this verse originated from; knowing that they would be familiar with it.

Wow Dave!! Thank you for that post. I had never even thought of that.

 

[Hedgehog]

LamorakDesGalis, thank you very much for your posts