If I Were an Atheist

anonymous person said:

So you said you want to help certain people suffering from certain beliefs, i.e. people who suffer from beliefs they have not consciously chosen to believe.

Is that about right?

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I want to help people who hold false beliefs, by helping them find the truth. How they arrived at these false beliefs is not of much interest to me.

Probably the main false belief that drives me to come to sites like this is "Atheists are inherently wicked monsters."

thatbrian said:

As an atheist, are you intellectually honest enough - are you brave enough to admit that your existence (holding to your worldview) is meaningless?

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No one is better suited to assess the meaning of my existence than I am.

Some find meaning in creating art. Others in writing. Others in helping the sick, the poor, or the ignorant.

Because our time is short, our choices matter. That is what meaning is. No, it won't prevent the sun from going red giant, but it matters, immediately, right now, in my life as I live it. The sun doesn't care about me. The universe doesn't care about me. I don't need or expect it to. To imagine the order of the universe does care is the height of vanity. My life's meaning is not of universal scale -- it is of human scale. And I, the liver of it, know what matters to me. (My life may also matter in some small way to the people with whom I interact as they follow their own paths, as they also matter to me.)

thatbrian said:

This worldview certainly isn't going to put a smile on my face or a spring in my step!

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Well, if you would rather hang on to a pleasing falsehood rather than accept a truth you find distasteful, that's your business. Humans can be experts at self-deception, so you might even be able to squash those doubts and cognitive dissonances deep down where no one would suspect them, not even yourself.

thatbrian said:

As an atheist, are you intellectually honest enough - are you brave enough to admit that your existence (holding to your worldview) is meaningless?

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For the sake of intellectual honesty, wouldn't it be better to discuss such a question, from the ground up, than imply that those who do not agree with you are not intellectually honest?

Life is meaningless in the grand scheme of things but that does not mean the experiences you have while you are alive are not rewarding.

My son rolled over from his back a few weeks ago. One of the most rewarding things I've ever experienced: the fact that in 200 100 years we will both most likely be dead did not affected how rewarded I felt when he rolled over.

Archaeopteryx said:

In general?

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Sure.

thatbrian said:

Question to all agnostics and atheists: Why are you wasting precious minutes of your life on Christian Forums?

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Loaded question. I don't think it's a waste.

thatbrian said:

More than simply spending time on CF, what I mean is why bother arguing against Christianity? Why engage in atheist apologetics?

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I have to ignore the term "atheist apologetics" because its not a concept I quite understand, but I'm going to go on what I think you meant. Debate and discussion is fulfilling. It helps meet our desire for more knowledge. The origin and meaning of life is an important question for all, and Christianity can't be ignored, if simply due to the size of the organisation. I'm always wondering what 2 billion people can see that I can't. It is also deeply entrenched in my community. I'm curious.

If you were to discover that the pharmaceutical industry was a huge scam, would you not want others to be made aware? Would you not want everyone to be able to make an informed choice?

thatbrian said:

If, as a Christian, I am wrong and there is no creator; life is a cosmic accident; there is no objective basis for morality;

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But there is a great opportunity for some logical morality, untainted by ancient customs.

thatbrian said:

when I take my last breath, I'll cease to exist. Who cares? Why try to "save me" from my "error"? If I'm wrong my life is just as meaningless as yours is. In other words, if you were to "convert" me to atheism, you'd have wasted your time. You've converted me to nothingness.

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How can you call the lives of others meaningless? Posts #22 and #25 showed the error of this point better than I could.

thatbrian said:

A Christian spends time on apologetics because he knows that people are immortal. We engage in apologetics in order to possibly spare some from rejecting the only source of life there is; therefore our time is (potentially) not wasted here. My assertion is that your time is wasted here.

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Unfortunately, Christians don't keep their rules and customs to themselves. Instead they insist on these matters becoming part of country laws and curriculum in schools. Children are indoctrinated from early on, before they can make decisions themselves. Their so called moral values are imposed on others, even when they make no sense.

thatbrian said:

I suppose that you could argue that people with beliefs in Christ are not useful members of society,

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Certainly not.

thatbrian said:

I suppose you could also argue that my life would be more meaningful or happy without trust in Christ. But, a life that is a cosmic accident headed full-speed for a permanent grave is hopeless, not happy, as all actions would lack meaning, and the ability do any objective good would be stripped away from me. An evil act would be no different than a kind act, because I will die; those I help or harm will die, and eventually the sun will die, taking whatever life that might remain with it. This worldview certainly isn't going to put a smile on my face or a spring in my step!

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The meaningful issue has already been addressed. I help people for the immense satisfaction derived from doing so in the moment. Some possible later benefit is not necessary. As pointed our already elsewhere, you seem to have a surprising worldview which is not consistent with mine.

thatbrian said:

This is a apologetics forum. Christians defend their positions, so turnabout is fair play.

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How do I defend a "position" on a topic that does not have enough evidence to make a decision on in the first place?

thatbrian said:

and the irredeemable pain and suffering all around him.

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If I believed in the Christian God, should I not be furious with him for allowing all this pain and suffering in the first place. Until I know better, I'm just going to accept it as my lot in life and deal with it.

thatbrian said:

As an atheist, are you intellectually honest enough - are you brave enough to admit that your existence (holding to your worldview) is meaningless?

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In the greater scheme of things I suppose we are pretty meaningless - even from the Christian perspective. However, surely you are not implying that we should turn to religion as a crutch just because we don't understand the meaning of life. If it makes you feel better, I suppose that is great, but that's hardly a good reason to turn to religion. I'm far more interested in finding out how it all works, rather than hoping it works a certain way.[/QUOTE]

thatbrian said:

Art? Who cares?

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The person who creates it, and imbues it (and her life) with meaning.

If life formed by accident then, by definition, there is no purpose.

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You seem to be quite trapped in your own idea that meaning and purpose is tied up in design. If I find a flat rock by a lake shore, I may heft it in my hand and give it meaning as a skipping stone. The meaning is not in the stone; it's just a stone. Meaning only mean anything to minds that can support meaning. Human beings have minds, and we can assign meaning to objects and ourselves. My mind gave a meaning of skipping-stone to that rock. Another human being might have assigned the meaning of basalt to it.

Artists pour meaning into their works. As a viewer, I may infer my own meaning in the work that may or may not be the same as that of the artist. You, on the other hand, apparently don't care much for art and maybe assign it no meaning at all. Your loss.

thatbrian said:

Art? Who cares? It's going to rot.

Helping the poor and sick? Help them do what, get well? Then they will all die? You might just be prolonging their suffering. Even if you could make them live forever, what have you accomplished? There still is no meaning to their existence.

If life formed by accident then, by definition, there is no purpose. A clock has a purpose. It was created to mark time. If it fails to mark time, it's broken because it fails to serve the purpose of its creator. The one who designed it.

Leave out the designer, and:

“Life ... is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

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Obviously, we have very different views about the meaning of life.

People here have told you how they see it. You disagree. You think they are wrong. You think their life is meaningless.

Well, that is your prerogative.

But if you want to convince them that they have everything wrong, and only you can help them... perhaps you should try a different approach than shouting at them.

essentialsaltes said:

I want to help people who hold false beliefs, by helping them find the truth. How they arrived at these false beliefs is not of much interest to me.

Probably the main false belief that drives me to come to sites like this is "Atheists are inherently wicked monsters."

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Hmmm...

You said you want to help people arrive at true beliefs but are not interested in how people arrive at their beliefs.

Does that sound right to you?

essentialsaltes said:

No, I said "One does not ... choose to believe that all odd square integers..."

Some oddballs may say they can choose to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but I doubt their sincerity.

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This is right. Beliefs are rationally related not causally related. One can imagine situations wherein beliefs do form causal relations however when one does it generally appears to be a malfunction of belief rather than the correct usage of it.

Larnievc said:

the fact that in 200 100 years we will both most likely be dead did not affected how rewarded I felt when he rolled over.

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Not to disagree overtly with the notion but nothing that will happen in 200 100 years is meaningful to us today...

thatbrian said:

A Christian spends time on apologetics because he knows that people are immortal.

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Really knows, or believes and trusts? It's not exactly the same thing.
And if the former I would love to see the epistemological chain for that.

My assertion is that your time is wasted here.

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Well if your argument holds then my time is wasted *anywhere* doing "anything".
So here is as good as anywhere, an' it please me.
But if pre-designed or commanded purpose is not present in the universe, and anyone ought to give that possibility some thought (even Shakespeare could at least do that, as you have quoted, fromone of my favourite passages), it may well shake up traditional or assumed values.
It is largely behind Sartre describing humanity as *condemned* to be free. So free that we can ad have to make our own decisions and purposes, and take responsibility for them.
(Unless we less authentically just buy in to whatever the local society is running with.)

But, a life that is a cosmic accident headed full-speed for a permanent grave is hopeless, not happy, as... This worldview certainly isn't going to put a smile on my face or a spring in my step!

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And what has "putting a smile on your face" got to do with which of a range of world views is more a match for reality?
**If** that is the universe we have, we can either face that or retreat to some happier fantasy, as a temporary but inadequate refuge. The universe not being as we would like it to be is no grounds to say that it is otherwise.

"Only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair can the soul's habitation be safely built."
Bertrand Russell on exactly that bleak looking to the future you sketch in, as he comments on the human predicament.

it seems to me that an atheist must invent purpose in order not to think out the implications of his worldview. He has to essentially lie to himself just to get out of bed in the morning and face the meaninglessness of his existence, and the irredeemable pain and suffering all around him.?

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Yes, invent purpose, but out of facing the situation not out of denying it. You miss the non-theist mindset, I suggest, though there have been times and places where "partying against the dark" was very visible.
Some of the accounts of life in Berlin just before its fall, for example.

As an atheist, are you intellectually honest enough - are you brave enough to admit that your existence (holding to your worldview) is meaningless?

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I dispute the assumed starting position. Yes, individual lives and an entire universe with no pre-set meaning or purpose. (as though it were a mere rat-maze, set up to see if we experimental rats could find the "right" path through it.)

Staying with the Shakespeare, I'll take the line before yours: life as "a poor player. That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more."
What to do with that hour, that lifetime? Well, curled up in bed whimpering doesn't have a lot to recommend it. And the time will slide on, anyway.

"What is love? ’tis not hereafter;
Present mirth hath present laughter;
What’s to come is still unsure:
In delay there lies no plenty;
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth’s a stuff will not endure."

or "But at my back I always hear.
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;.
And yonder all before us lie.
Deserts of vast eternity."

Or go to "Ozymandias": It is well known, this dread timescale which almost makes a mockery of a human life, of human existence.

But what is left? To live life, of course. To work with and play with one's hour on stage, or in the sun.
The golden rule in its varieties doesn't only make sense with eternal life in a god-composed universe.
(and there problems with that... follow it through and free-will is very hard, perhaps impossible, to find room for.)

So apart from myself I think it right to assist the next generation to deal with their "brief candle" of existence, if that's all they, as I , get.
How about the thought from "In Flanders Fields"? I can use that.

"Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high."

Eternal hope? I've looked carefully and can't find enough to put hope or faith in.
Private Frazer's "Doomed, doomed, we're all doomed" is perfectly correct in the long run, (though always wrong in the particular incident.)

"In the long run we're all dead" (John Maynard Keynes) was not a call to apathetic inaction but a call to understand and act on the now, not to trust that "it'll all come out all right in the end."

Samuel Beckett's "Endgame"
HAMM: Clov!
CLOV (impatiently): What is it?
HAMM: We're not beginning to... to... mean something?
CLOV: Mean something! You and I, mean something!
(Brief laugh.) Ah that's a good one!

I could reach for Tolkien, or Anglo-Saxon tales, or Douglas Adams...
All of them have the seeing of transitory existence, the facing of it, but the finding of meaning, enough meaning, anyway.

Chris
(Well into the second half of his time on stage.)

thatbrian said:

Leave out the designer, and:

“Life ... is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

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Yes, pretty much. That doesn't mean there is a creator, though.
But I looked at the other possibility, and it didn't come out any better.
Look at the craters on the moon. Unless you can think of a third (I can't), there are only two real possibilities.
1) the arrangement of the craters is due to random factors, and the chaotic motion of rocks in the solar system.
2) Every single impact crater and mark is exactly where it is supposed to be.

If there is a an involved deity (not just a deist's "first cause") then I don't see that there's room for randomness and chance at all. The giant rock that did for the dinosaurs and changed evolutionary paths drastically was not happenstance, it was policy. And this runs right down the scale, for where would you declare a cut off point?
Every shuffled pack of cards, every lottery win, every roll of a roulette wheel is not affected by chance but as it is ordained that it should be.
Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."
Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."

Which squeezes out any sense of freedom and free choice.
Every surrounding event round every human is *arranged*. Talk about being shepherded!
The most bizarre and unlikely death, or rescue, has no chance in it.
The man who died when a cow fell on him. Those killed by lightning strikes: we are back indistinguishably close to the Greeks' idea of God-hurled thunderbolts!

This is the universe?

Chris

Chris B said:

Yes, pretty much. That doesn't mean there is a creator, though.
But I looked at the other possibility, and it didn't come out any better.
Look at the craters on the moon. Unless you can think of a third (I can't), there are only two real possibilities.
1) the arrangement of the craters is due to random factors, and the chaotic motion of rocks in the solar system.
2) Every single impact crater and mark is exactly where it is supposed to be.

If there is a an involved deity (not just a deist's "first cause") then I don't see that there's room for randomness and chance at all. The giant rock that did for the dinosaurs and changed evolutionary paths drastically was not happenstance, it was policy. And this runs right down the scale, for where would you declare a cut off point?
Every shuffled pack of cards, every lottery win, every roll of a roulette wheel is not affected by chance but as it is ordained that it should be.
Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."
Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."

Which squeezes out any sense of freedom and free choice.
Every surrounding event round every human is *arranged*. Talk about being shepherded!
The most bizarre and unlikely death, or rescue, has no chance in it.
The man who died when a cow fell on him. Those killed by lightning strikes: we are back indistinguishably close to the Greeks' idea of God-hurled thunderbolts!

This is the universe?

Chris

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How does this:

"Which squeezes out any sense of freedom and free choice."

Follow from anything you said?

anonymous person said:

How does this:

"Which squeezes out any sense of freedom and free choice."

Follow from anything you said?

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Because under that scenario the results of any choices, (which often have to be made without knowing all the factors in play) are not "chancy" things at all. There is no "taking a risk". Your "luck" is arranged and predetermined.
I spent much of my career making decisions that were 95%/5% splits, if the world has real chance.
The chance of it being the minority case could not be eliminated. But in a world with no chance, whether one of my decisions hits the 5% situation is now God's ruling. Success or failure is not in my hands, or down to calculated odds.
God will decide or has decided whether my decision call is good or bad, will turn out good or bad. Even though I have done my best with the information at hand.
I can't rely on myself, or even on statistics, in such a world.
Outcomes are set up as the deity has arranged. For good or bad, for weal or woe.

Chris

anonymous person said:

You said you want to help people arrive at true beliefs but are not interested in how people arrive at their beliefs.

Does that sound right to you?

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I don't think you're reading carefully enough: "How they arrived at these false beliefs is not of interest".

Maybe they were inculcated with falseness at their parents' knee. Maybe they learned it from a cult leader. Maybe they read it on a matchbox. The ways to false knowledge are many. None of those accidents matter much. And I have no need of false ways to teach the truth.