If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

Davebuck said:

It's still all nuts to me. It's ok to stone a child as long as your intentions are good. Nope. Doesn't fly. Just like the smiting stuff doesn't fly.

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Yup, I'm sure a bear would see it the same way when you're trying to take him out of a bear trap. You see, to get him out, you have to push the trap farther into him to get it to release. Thus the problem of not having "all knowledge". God does, we humans do not, thus if God says something he has more information then you or I to make on that desicion and even based on the thoughts of the first philosphers, that makes his choice better then one we can make.

There is no devil. We create our own devils. Some people blame the devil for the world's problems and some people blame God. Our egos and sense of self gratification are the real devils and the source of all our problems. Even natural disasters. Would a loving God create earthquakes to torment us? Not a perfectly loving God. Think of the earth like we think of our bodies. When virus's invade us then our bodies react adversely. We are like virus's on the earth when we aren't taking care of her. It's all our negativity, wars and hatred that causes nature to react adversely. God doesn't want disease and destruction. But he agreed to give us a little piece of eternity to try to learn, grow and explore things for ourselves during our short stay here. Sadly, we are failing miserably. Love and understanding is the answer and it is how we find our way back to God. Thousands of Near Death Experience cases have come back with this message. After years of studying near death experiences I have yet to see a case where someone came back and met the devil yet numerous accounts have met angels and Jesus. If someone knows of some documented NDE's where they met the devil I'd be interested in seeing them. The bible is a great inspirational work which tells metaphorical stories to get the message across. When Jesus was talking about sheep he wasn't literally talking about sheep. When the Bible talks about the devil it is talking about the ego inside of us that wants to break away from God. The part of us that wants to be our own masters, do everything our own way and gratify ourselves at the expense of others with no outside interference or influence. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

How do you know there is no devil? Negatives are very hard to prove.

truthquest said:

There is no devil. We create our own devils. Some people blame the devil for the world's problems and some people blame God. Our egos and sense of self gratification are the real devils and the source of all our problems. Even natural disasters. Would a loving God create earthquakes to torment us? Not a perfectly loving God. Think of the earth like we think of our bodies. When virus's invade us then our bodies react adversely. We are like virus's on the earth when we aren't taking care of her. It's all our negativity, wars and hatred that causes nature to react adversely. God doesn't want disease and destruction. But he agreed to give us a little piece of eternity to try to learn, grow and explore things for ourselves during our short stay here. Sadly, we are failing miserably. Love and understanding is the answer and it is how we find our way back to God. Thousands of Near Death Experience cases have come back with this message. After years of studying near death experiences I have yet to see a case where someone came back and met the devil yet numerous accounts have met angels and Jesus. If someone knows of some documented NDE's where they met the devil I'd be interested in seeing them. The bible is a great inspirational work which tells metaphorical stories to get the message across. When Jesus was talking about sheep he wasn't literally talking about sheep. When the Bible talks about the devil it is talking about the ego inside of us that wants to break away from God. The part of us that wants to be our own masters, do everything our own way and gratify ourselves at the expense of others with no outside interference or influence. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

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Your second sentence contradicts your first statement. If we create our own devils, then devils must exist.

Kidding aside, to the extent that spiritual reality transcends our lives, the way in which we begin to understand such concepts as angels and devils is limited by the ability of our language and our imaginations to convey the idea accurately. Through our relationship with each other, through scripture and our own personal revelation it is possible for each of us to come to our own understanding of the reality conveyed by such concepts. In a sense, it is only through the creative utilization of imagination that our world becomes real and meaningful. Even if only in a metaphorical or symbolic sense, devils and angels help us conceptualize reality and are therefore real.

In terms of NDE, however we are to understand them, not all experiences have been positive. In terms of our own lives, we experience the evil within and the evil of others as something very real. I cannot be completey certain that there is not a spiritual force that goes beyond the mental concepts of the individual. But I do know, because of my fundamental trust in God, that nothing exists greater than the power of God Himself. Evil, in whatever form it takes, can be overcome. It is understandable that God chooses to work through us in order to overcome the devil. It is such struggles such as these where we a given the opportunity to define ourselves as children of God.

The same reason I handicap myself in games of Civilisation 3 or Alpha Centauri, I expect. He likes a nice interesting game.

FBI78 said:

Why do u have to question everything. Do you believe in anything have faith in anything?

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I question everything because I'm human. It is rational and logical to question claims that folks make. The crazier the claim, the more you should question and demand proof, in my opinion.

FBI78 said:

Those Christians that say they dont believe in the Devil or hell arent really Christians.

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Hmmmm, so Jehovah's witnesses aren't christians? And, folks who studied the original biblical texts and can't find the word 'hell' aren't christians?

Hmmm, was king james, the guy who put together your version of the bible, a christian?

You know, this is a classic comment by so many christians. Why do so many christians think they know everything and those who disagree, 'aren't really christians'?

Joveia said:

According to Isaiah God is in the middle of a 'strange work', an 'alien work'. Again in revelations an angel says the 'mystery of God shall be finished' when the devil is cast into the abyss. The devil is very much a part of God's plan and God's mystery. There is no official explanation in the bible (I think) as to why God let's the devil test people. I have my own theory:

A person who turned to God if there was no devil, and there was no temptation not to be a christian and to disobey God's/Jesus would be winning less of a victory, than if someone turned to God and Jesus when all the odds were stacked against them. This could be the 'pearl' of great price that God wants.

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That sounds like a very coercive god.

Netpreacher said:

Another reason God has allowed evil to continue on earth is to give us a chance to exhibit the qualities of Christ and the qualities of God in this present world that normally would not be manifested in a world of good, such as longsuffering, meekness, etc. When every opportunity for these qualities to be expressed is done, we shall the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with fire and great glory!

In Jesus name,
Danny

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Every opportunity? Well, because that number is infinite, I guess you believe he's never coming.

Outspoken said:

Yup, I'm sure a bear would see it the same way when you're trying to take him out of a bear trap. You see, to get him out, you have to push the trap farther into him to get it to release. Thus the problem of not having "all knowledge". God does, we humans do not, thus if God says something he has more information then you or I to make on that desicion and even based on the thoughts of the first philosphers, that makes his choice better then one we can make.

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So because a beartrap works that way, life works that way? Well, I know a grand designer could create a better bear trap or create no bear trap at all.

Why create a devil and a hell? Wouldn't a decision to follow someone be that much more meaningful if the alternative wasn't hell? Wouldn't it be better if there wasn't this devil person out there messing with folks?

These ideas are just as silly as greek mythology and other crazy religious stories.

truthquest said:

There is no devil. We create our own devils. Some people blame the devil for the world's problems and some people blame God. Our egos and sense of self gratification are the real devils and the source of all our problems. Even natural disasters. Would a loving God create earthquakes to torment us? Not a perfectly loving God. Think of the earth like we think of our bodies. When virus's invade us then our bodies react adversely. We are like virus's on the earth when we aren't taking care of her. It's all our negativity, wars and hatred that causes nature to react adversely. God doesn't want disease and destruction. But he agreed to give us a little piece of eternity to try to learn, grow and explore things for ourselves during our short stay here. Sadly, we are failing miserably. Love and understanding is the answer and it is how we find our way back to God. Thousands of Near Death Experience cases have come back with this message. After years of studying near death experiences I have yet to see a case where someone came back and met the devil yet numerous accounts have met angels and Jesus. If someone knows of some documented NDE's where they met the devil I'd be interested in seeing them. The bible is a great inspirational work which tells metaphorical stories to get the message across. When Jesus was talking about sheep he wasn't literally talking about sheep. When the Bible talks about the devil it is talking about the ego inside of us that wants to break away from God. The part of us that wants to be our own masters, do everything our own way and gratify ourselves at the expense of others with no outside interference or influence. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

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Sorry, but FBI78 says you aren't really a christian if you don't believe the devil is a real individual.

Seriously though, your take on the whole thing seems much more rational. Why don't more people believe that the devil is a metaphor?

Whitehorse said:

How do you know there is no devil? Negatives are very hard to prove.

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Whitehorse, above was your reply to truthquest.

I'd say the onus is on the one claiming a devil exists to provide clear proof of him. Since there isn't any, Whitehorse is looking at other possible reasons why the word devil appears. He explained that the bible is full of metaphors (e.g., sheep doesn't mean sheep, it means people). So, he posited that the devil is a metaphor for your inner ego (or Id, if you follow freud's vernacular).

How do you resolve this?

victorhadin said:

The same reason I handicap myself in games of Civilisation 3 or Alpha Centauri, I expect. He likes a nice interesting game.

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That's fine for gaming but from an ethical point of view, most take issue when using real live people for a means to an end. That is, it's wrong to cause one to suffer just to help another person along or make their life 'more interesting'.

So, to say that your god allows the devil to exist to make a nice interesting game is silly (as your emoticon suggests). But, some folks seem to really believe that. Go figure.

Davebuck said:

That's fine for gaming but from an ethical point of view, most take issue when using real live people for a means to an end. That is, it's wrong to cause one to suffer just to help another person along or make their life 'more interesting'.

So, to say that your god allows the devil to exist to make a nice interesting game is silly (as your emoticon suggests). But, some folks seem to really believe that. Go figure.

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If there is no God, then who is mainly responsible for the suffering of mankind? In most cases the answer would be man himself.
From the Christian point of view, the answer is the same. Because man is a sinner, because man is unjust, because man follows his own selfish will rather than answering a higher ethical calling, one's fellow man suffers.
With or without God, then, because the cause of evil is the same, the solution as well is similar. If the cause of evil is due to wrong choices on behalf of man, then the solution to evil would be the inner transformation of man himself. Whether we understand the devil(evil) metaphorically, or as a real spiritual force, or even as a natural evolutionary development of our own physiology, any solution of possibility of betterment of the human condition must focus on man himself. More clearly stated, the focus ought to be on man as a moral being, capable of free choice. It is within our capability to choice between good and evil, or good and better, or even between the lesser of two evils.
A God that would create a world such as it is for his own amusement could quite correctly be considered to be amoral, or even evil. this cannot be the Christian view. Life is not a game.
From a theistic point of view, if we were created without the ability to make wrong choices, we would in effect be little more tha automatons. We could hardly conceptualize ourselves as beings that was created in the image of God. And in fact, our own experience of ourselves gives ample proof that we are indeed free to choose.
The ability to choose is our gift, and to choose wisely is our responsibility. That we may overcome the devil is our ultimate hope. The example of Christ Himself demonstrates that our hope is not in vain.

solomon said:

If there is no God, then who is mainly responsible for the suffering of mankind? In most cases the answer would be man himself.

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Rather, I'd just say that suffering can be caused by humanity or simply a product of nature. E.g., a murder causes suffering and a hurricane causes suffering. The first one can be stopped by man, the second one is just part of life. Pretty simple.

It's less simple when you believe there is some god that could stop the hurricane or a draught or famine or diseases, etc... Seems like either the god isn't very powerful or not that nice. It seems to me though that it's much more likely that no such supernatural thing exists.

solomon said:

From the Christian point of view, the answer is the same. Because man is a sinner, because man is unjust, because man follows his own selfish will rather than answering a higher ethical calling, one's fellow man suffers.
With or without God, then, because the cause of evil is the same, the solution as well is similar. If the cause of evil is due to wrong choices on behalf of man, then the solution to evil would be the inner transformation of man himself. Whether we understand the devil(evil) metaphorically, or as a real spiritual force, or even as a natural evolutionary development of our own physiology, any solution of possibility of betterment of the human condition must focus on man himself. More clearly stated, the focus ought to be on man as a moral being, capable of free choice. It is within our capability to choice between good and evil, or good and better, or even between the lesser of two evils.
A God that would create a world such as it is for his own amusement could quite correctly be considered to be amoral, or even evil. this cannot be the Christian view. Life is not a game.
From a theistic point of view, if we were created without the ability to make wrong choices, we would in effect be little more tha automatons. We could hardly conceptualize ourselves as beings that was created in the image of God. And in fact, our own experience of ourselves gives ample proof that we are indeed free to choose.
The ability to choose is our gift, and to choose wisely is our responsibility. That we may overcome the devil is our ultimate hope. The example of Christ Himself demonstrates that our hope is not in vain.

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I've heard the 'free choice is a gift' concept before and doubt it. I don't see how free choice is logically the cause of suffering? How can the choice of one person or many people cause a tornado to wreck a trailer park?

And, the idea of it being a gift does make it a game of sorts. It is saying that this creator knows the rules and vaguely tells them to his creation and then sees if they can follow them. AND, he created this hell and devil to make things interesting as one person mentioned. Sounds immoral to me. And odd. What about all the little kids or folks in cultures that don't know about this particular god or folks born with mental disabilities or disease and can't help how they act?

Again, a better explanation is that we simple exist and we are a product of our biology and environment and that suffering and bad things happen. No devil, no gods, all of the myths are man-made. All we can do is gather info to figure it out. Some folks have been taught about devil and gods and hell and that's how they interpret the world. They don't dig much deeper than that and don't look at the strange logic it requires to believe all the specifics and other conclusions.

Davebuck said:

....
I've heard the 'free choice is a gift' concept before and doubt it. I don't see how free choice is logically the cause of suffering? How can the choice of one person or many people cause a tornado to wreck a trailer park?

And, the idea of it being a gift does make it a game of sorts. It is saying that this creator knows the rules and vaguely tells them to his creation and then sees if they can follow them. AND, he created this hell and devil to make things interesting as one person mentioned. Sounds immoral to me. And odd. What about all the little kids or folks in cultures that don't know about this particular god or folks born with mental disabilities or disease and can't help how they act?
.........

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If life seems like a game with God, how could it be any different without God? If life appears to be nothing but a cruel joke with God as sovereign, then would it not also be the same cruel joke with Nature as sovereign? Believer and non-believer alike,we all live under the same sun and have to deal with the same reality. If with God, our experience of life is an immoral oddity then without God, it is the same life with the same facts and therefore the same conclusion.
The Christian attiude of gratitude for the past, patience in the present and hope for the future is based on a fundamental trust that omnibenevolent God has not created us as a cruel joke.
To live with the perception that life is such a game would be to live continually on the precipice of despair.

Solomon,

Nature isn't soveriegn or consious. Therefore, there is no game. Nature is just a term that refers to the dynamic world or universe. 'nature' can't play. It'd be like saying dice play cruel tricks or the wind plays tricks or the rythmic tides are playing tricks or the speed of light plays tricks etc...

So, you don't think the whole creation of the devil is a game. Do you prescribe to the logical argument: Yahweh is all good. Yahweh chooses to allow the devil and hell to exist. The devil and hell must be good things overall. That is, Yahweh doesn't just allow all the bad stuff to happen because it's more interesting or a test, he does it because it's the best possible thing to do.

Some theologeons and folks believe thats the way it is. In Candide, Voltaire makes fun of this position with the philosopher Pangloss. Folks get killed and maimed and raped and Pangloss's explanation is that those things were good, for 'this is the best of all possible worlds'. That is, based on the idea that god can only make the best, everything we experience must be the best it could be.

Now, some xians will say that the 'gift' of free will is what causes things to be worse than they could be but that can't be true. Why would god give a gift if he knew it led to worse results? But, even that's not what this thread is about. It's about why doesn't this Yahweh fellow do something about this devil character (and why not put a block on hell so no poor folks go their (like kids or nice people who just happen to believe in other religions). How do folks resolve this?

Without getting caught up in a play on words, if not God, then it is nature that is the cause of our lives Sovereignty doesn't imply consciousness. It merely implies control. If not God, then it is physical processes of nature that have made the world the way it is. From a purely subjective point of view of the conscious human, if the wretchedness of our existence seems to be a cruel joke with God in control, it still follows that that wretchedness must be subjectively experienced the same even if the impersonal unconscious forces of nature are the prime cause of our existence.
Whether by accident or by design, it is irrational to believe than human reason in and of itself can ever fathom the enigmatic nature of our uncertain existence. In terms of morals though, the human will alone is capable of making moral choice, so the problem of evil, which is a moral problem only, should be seen only in terms of man himself. The fact that rats drown on sinking ships, or the innocent lambs are ripped apart by lions cannot really be viewed in moral terms. Even if suffering involved, the concept of evil does not really apply. Suffering and death in and of themselves are not evil. " What does not kill you, makes you stronger", or so the saying goes. Through our suffering, we advance.
Perhaps rather making the statement that "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds", it would be better stated if we ask ourselves, experiencing the world as we do, whether or not life is really worth the effort. It is not just whether or not moral freedom is a choice, or a condemnation, but whether or not life itself is a blessing or a curse.
Each time we consciously choose to bring a child into this world, or really just in the process of sustaining our own lives, we are affirming that our lives are still gifts, in spite of everything. Even in its most terrible, most wretched state, life remains the marvel of marvels. We glorify life even when it appears totally unreasonable to do so. The cross itself is transformed from a symbol of shame and defeat into the ultimate symbol of victory.
Perhaps this, then, may serve as an answer to the question of the devil. It is only through the overcoming of horrible enemies that the infinite greatness and transcendant glory of life itself becomes defined. It is our sufferings that make us hard, and our struggles that give us strength. It is only through our opposition to the invitations of evil that our characters as moral beings become defined.


As a postscript, nobody knows who is ultimately destined for heaven or hell, or even the full nature of the afterlife.

"As a postscript, nobody knows who is ultimately destined for heaven or hell, or even the full nature of the afterlife."

or if there is an afterlife at all.

Rev 20:

"7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "

I suppose the next thread on our list will be "If God is merciful, why DOES he smite the devil?"

Davebuck said:

Whitehorse, above was your reply to truthquest.

I'd say the onus is on the one claiming a devil exists to provide clear proof of him. Since there isn't any, Whitehorse is looking at other possible reasons why the word devil appears. He explained that the bible is full of metaphors (e.g., sheep doesn't mean sheep, it means people). So, he posited that the devil is a metaphor for your inner ego (or Id, if you follow freud's vernacular).

How do you resolve this?

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I'm doing no such thing. I never said anything like what you are claiming. Moreover, the person I addressed said there is no such thing as a devil. You can't say that the burden of proof is on someone else; this is an evasion tactic. Moreover, there are great differences between the laws of logic and the legal system of a Republic.

It is the burden of each person who makes a statement to prove what he is saying. This person says there is no devil. I'd need to see proof of this.