If God is all loving, then why...?

[Umut]

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

What about disasters that men have no free will over?

How can we prove God's existence for an Atheist without involving faith?

 

[Suzannah]

1. Disasters often cause people to turn to Him. Many never would otherwise.
2. Same as above.
3. Very difficult!

In short, Umut, there is meaning in suffering. Suffering should be embraced when it comes because the experience allows us to have greater compassion in the future for others...

 

[Umut]

Yeah, I had a whole discussion with my philosophy teacher.

I told him things like If we didn't suffer we would take happiness for granted... that's why we fast as well...

and things like suffering builds character, and

it will make your reward better in the afterlife...

I already know the answers, i just want people's opinions that's all

thank you, you've said some things that have enlightened me even more.

now i have more strong points to present.

that's all i do in philosophy class... make Atheists look dumb.

 

[Suzannah]

Oh, try not to make them look dumb....try to make them look inside themselves...that's a better way!

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Umut:

Have you ever read C.S.Lewis. He's quite popular with high school and college students, especially his books on Screwtape Letters, Chronicles of Narnia and The Space Trilogy. I also liked his Mere Christianity and Surprised by Joy. He covers the topic of suffering beautifully in these books.

You could read these books, especially the Space Trilogy, and your mom probably won't bat an eye! There is a lot of deep theology in C.S. Lewis.

Why are there sufferings and tragedies in the world?

To make us aware that this whole planetary existence is only temporary -- only a shadow of the reality that is to await us in heaven.

We sleep every night and we think that this is reality when we awaken from our sleep. But this life here is really the dream ... the shadow ... we cannot understand ... but heaven is the reality. Christ is the Eternal Light, The Way, the Truth and the Life.

Have you ever read The Allegory of the Caves? This is usually read by college freshmen during their Freshmen English or beginning philosophy classes. The Ancient Greeks helped paved the way for us to understand Christ. They gave us our theological language of the Prime Mover -- the unchangeable, inexpressible, incomprehensible God.
In Oedipus Rex the concept that one man should die for us is presented. This ancient Greek tragedy paved the way for the understanding of the Crucifixion. That Christ died for us is the greatest tragedy -- yet our greatest hope.

During Great Lent -- we call it the Bright Sadness. There is sadness in our repentance but hope in our own resurrection when we will be joined to Christ for all eternity.

Please keep praying the Jesus Prayer. Are you able to attend Divine Liturgy on Sundays or attend any of the Lenten Services?

Know that I am praying for you, Umut.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[nadroj1985]

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

What about disasters that men have no free will over?

The only answer that makes sense to me is that God allows suffering so that we can overcome it and by this means more fully enjoy life when it is good.

How can we prove God's existence for an Atheist without involving faith?

We can't. God's existence cannot be proven. It will always be a matter of faith.

 

[Suzannah]

Elizabeth...those are wonderful recommendations...I love them all...I love your insight too...

 

[MariaRegina]

Elizabeth...those are wonderful recommendations...I love them all...I love your insight too...

 

[Moros]

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Patristic]

God permits suffering and evil because it influences people to turn to God. God also knows what people would do and what would happen if He chose not to allow suffering to take place, but since He does, we must trust in Him that He has allowed these things because He can bring more good out of them as compared to the good He can bring out of the opposite.

 

[prodromos]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

To understand this passage correctly...

In his discourse entitled That God is not the Cause of Evil, Saint Basil the Great writes the following: "But one may say, if God is not responsible for evil things, why is it said in the book of Esaias, 'I am He that prepared light and Who formed darkness, Who makes peace and Who creates evils' (45:7)". And again, "There came down evils from the Lord upon the gates of Jerusalem" (Mich. 1:12). And, "Shall there be evil in the city which the Lord hath not wrought?" (Amos 3:6). And in the great Ode of Moses, "Behold, I am and there is no god beside Me. I will slay, and I will make to live; I will smite, and I will heal" (Deut. 32:39). But none of these citations, to him who understands the deeper meaning of the Holy Scriptures, casts any blame on God, as if He were the cause of evils and their creator, for He Who said, "I am the One Who makes light and darkness", shows Himself as the Creator of the universe, not that He is the creator of any evil.... "He creates evils", that means, "He fashions them again and brings them to a betterment, so that they leave their evilness, to take on the nature of good"

St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94-96. In this particular passage, St. Basil carefully makes a distinction between the Greek verbs "ktizo" and "dimiourgo", both of which are generally translated into English as "create". However, "ktizo" has a long history, beginning with the Sanskrit kshi, which, as in early Greek, meant "to people a country", "to build houses and cities", "to colonize". Later, in Greek, the word came to mean "to establish", "to build up and develop", and finally, "to produce", "create", "bring about". Having in mind these other connotations of the verb "ktizo", St. Basil discerned the proper implication of the word in this context and hence made a point of emphasizing this distinction.

St. John the Theologian reading room
Click on "The River of Fire" in the top frame. The above bit is in chapter 12.

John.

 

[Benedicta00]

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

So that he may bring a greater good from them.

What about disasters that men have no free will over?

Same.

How can we prove God's existence for an Atheist without involving faith?

Anyone can clearly see that each human person is uniquely created at the hands of a creator and their dignity comes from the same creator. Also, one can see the perfect order of the universe is a result of someone who created it, but they have to be willing to look and that may take some getting out of their own way to do it.

God permits suffering and evil because it influences people to turn to God. God also knows what people would do and what would happen if He chose not to allow suffering to take place, but since He does, we must trust in Him that He has allowed these things because He can bring more good out of them as compared to the good He can bring out of the opposite.

I agree. In the dialogues of St. Catharine Jesus says "Think of what [the good] they wouldn't do" referring to if we did not have any suffering left in the world. We would not be inspired to do any good at all.

 

[nyj]

I know I'm not Orthodox, but this is a topic that I've discussed before. If I may interject a few thoughts, thanks for entertaining them.

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

Human-made disasters are acts of free will. Some men choose evil over good.

What about disasters that men have no free will over?

First, natural events are amoral, and as such are neither evil nor good, they just are. Second, I would argue that a living world that did not have change would be a logical impossibility. Change implies physical actions and reactions, which can have unfortunate side effects for other things which get caught up in those reactions. That however does not make it evil, nor does it imply that God is not all loving.

How can we prove God's existence for an Atheist without involving faith?

You cannot. You can simply preach the Gospel and pray that the Holy Spirit will give them the grace to accept it.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Natural disasters = Curse from the Original Sin

 

[mattwebb22]

The fall of man caused the fall of the world. God created Earth, but he did not create it in it's current state. This world is a fallen world, fallen from the glory and purity it once had before sin.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Thats right Matt. Without this basic truth, there is no logical explanation for this world that we live in, since a loving God created it.

 

[Alfred M]

If God is all loving, then why is there disasters in the world?

What about disasters that men have no free will over?

How can we prove God's existence for an Atheist without involving faith?

Umut,

I had to jump in and put my two cents worth in on this one. Although it is impossible for us to ever fully understand the mystery of God and the so many "whys?" we all have. The best answers to this line of thought on the physical suffering of mankind, I found in reading a work on the teaching of Athanasius. As we would, I hope, mostly agree that we (as perfected 'humanity' being made in God's own image) were placed in a created world to be in perfect communion with God... but we chose to "have it our way." We brought physical death into this world of our own free will and continue to suffer from all sort of physical and natural disaster. Read very carefully and slowly the following words regarding Athanasius' teachings, a message will be realized...I think!

"Indeed, the Creator's benevolent lordship is further manifest in God's provision of a ring fence against people's abusing their God-given free will. By placing them in paradise, and by warning them against misusing this faculty, stating the glorious results of obedience and the dire consequences of turning from God, God further sought to secure the additional grace given. Significantly, just as people's dependence does not deprive them of responsibility, so this example of God's lordship is not so dominant as to render them (us) but puppets. In being so guarded by God, their (our) freedom is not removed. Rather, its importance is the more stressed in that God graciously seeks to protect them (us) from abusing their God-given liberty, calling upon them to use their freedom for establishing and maintaining their goodness"

Our worth and goodness therefore lies in God , the source of all existence and of its goodness. Creation is from the world's side a continuous receiving of God, who gives all that it is and has. It (we as creation) has responsibilities towards God, whom it (again this means 'us') is to serve, and towards itself, whose God-given and life enhancing harmony no part should disturb."

We have all fallen short and disrupted the life giving harmony and now we are on our journies back to the perfect humanity we chose to throw away. We are all prodigal sons laying in filth hoping to make it back to our Father's house and share in the rejoicing of the salvation celebration. Until then... the disasters will come. The hardened heart will reject and blame God, those seeking the goodness of the harmony that is to be again will call upon God for the strength He can provide. Suffering is the call of those who love God...yet through Christ our yoke is made lighter and we become able to bear the burdens of this world.

Alfred the rambler who is nothing but the absolute lowliest of sinners.

 

[Umut]

Thank you ever so much.

So many brilliant minds! I love seeing your answers, they are truly brilliant.

To Chanter: No, I have not read those books, believe me if I had the freedom, I sure would read so many books... But I do not have that freedom.

I loved your answers, may God bless you all!

I don't want to sound like a smart-***, but I mostly knew all these logical answers. I loved Alfread M.'s point the most; suffering is the call of those who love God. Brilliant.

Pure. Lovely.

God bless you all, thank you!

Christ be with you.!

 

[Photini]

I believe it was St. Silouan the Athonite who said, "The greater the love, the greater the suffering."

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I believe it was St. Silouan the Athonite who said, "The greater the love, the greater the suffering."

Indeed. John Paul II knows about that as does St Therese the "little flower" who said "I would not suffer less for Jesus."