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Not all (ethnic) Israel is (true) Israel.
False. All ethnic Israel is truly "Israel." They are not all truly "Spiritual Israel."Not all (ethnic) Israel is (true) Israel.
Don't confuse the two in your understanding of NT doctrine.
Right. That's exactly what I was saying, that to be true to what Israel was called to be one must live by the Law of God for Israel. Otherwise, they would not become non-Israel. Rather, they would become *as if* they were not Israel, and would be cut off or sent away into exile, out of their land.This statement is saying that being ethnic Israel, is necessary, but not sufficient, to be true Israel
Which is also saying that you cannot be true Israel, if you are not ethnic Israel.
The apostolic teaching (Gal 3:29) of Christ (Lk 10:16) disagrees:This statement is saying that being ethnic Israel, is necessary, but not sufficient, to be true Israel
Which is also saying that you cannot be true Israel, if you are not ethnic Israel.
Not according to the apostolic teaching (Ro 11:29-33) of Christ (Lk 10:16).False. All ethnic Israel is truly "Israel." They are not all truly "Spiritual Israel."
Your quotes have not a thing to do with the point you wished to make. The Abrahamic Promise guaranteed both national Israel and a company of nations who share the faith of Abraham.The apostolic teaching (Gal 3:29) of Christ (Lk 10:16) disagrees:
". . .you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (i.e., Israel) and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:16).
The true Israel who believes in her Messiah is not replaced, but is expanded, while the apostate Israel is cut off until it comes to faith in its Messiah (Ro 11:23).
The Israel of God (Gal 6:16), made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, is the new seed of Abraham and heir according to the promise (Gal 3:29).Your quotes have not a thing to do with the point you wished to make. The Abrahamic Promise guaranteed both national Israel and a company of nations who share the faith of Abraham.
The nations do not displace Israel, even if in the present age Israel has failed in their mission. The coming age may very well be Israel's opportunity to join the company of Christian nations who fulfill the promise God made to Abraham. All Israel needs to do is become a Christian nation, which will take place, I believe, at Christ's 2nd Coming. It will be Israel's 2nd chance.
Being "one in faith" does not prohibit distinctions of ethnicity. In fact, the promise God made to Abraham *requires* ethnic divisions. Oneness takes place *across ethnic lines.*
Israel is not "expanded" in their definition. Israel remains national Israel. If anything Israel is "added" to the company of nations who currently have faith.
As I said, the promise, made to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ) requires both national Israel and a multiplicity of nations who share the faith of Israel. In the future, I believe national Israel will adopt the Christian faith, and so join the company of Christian nations who are all restored after Christ's 2nd Coming.The Israel of God (Gal 6:16), made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, is the new seed of Abraham and heir according to the promise (Gal 3:29).
Paul was not that certain, for he stated their return conditionally; i.e., "if," not "when."As I said, the promise, made to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ) requires both national Israel and a multiplicity of nations who share the faith of Israel. In the future, I believe national Israel will adopt the Christian faith, and so join the company of Christian nations who are all restored after Christ's 2nd Coming.
Galatians 3 tells us that Abraham was justified by faith alone without works, making him our father in faith in the Body of Christ as well. That is correct.
But that does not allow you to slip in the (i.e., Israel) into the meaning of what Paul was saying in Galatians 3
Israel came from Jacob.
Learn to reason Biblically.Abraham has many descendants other than Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah's passing and had children after that (Genesis 25:1-4)
Just because we are Abraham's seed, it does not follow that we are therefore Israel.
Otherwise even the descendants of Keturah could claim to be Israel. (Genesis 25:1-4)
Learn to reason logically
Clare, the "if" refers to the individual Jew, or group of Jews, who are still deciding if they are going to convert. The "when" is for the nation, which *must* come to be in the future. Regardless of individuals, or groups of individuals, who choose to reject Christ, ultimately the nation will be brought to the place where they will, as a nation, embrace Christianity. That is what Paul taught in Rom 11.Pau was not that certain, for he stated their return conditionally; i.e., "if," not "when."
"IF" (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in." (Ro 11:23)
There is no "when" in Ro 11:23, there is only "if."Clare, the "if" refers to the individual Jew, or group of Jews, who are still deciding if they are going to convert. The "when" is for the nation,
False. Rom 11:23 includes in its context the following...There is no "when" in Ro 11:23, there is only "if."
The context is not the verse itself under discussion.False. Rom 11:23 includes in its context the following...
And that is an incorrect translation of the Greek for the sake of one's theology.Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
That is all true Israel will be saved, apostate Israel for the last 2,000 years who reject the Messiah is not saved.This is the "When." The full inclusion of the People of Israel will be after a temporary loss and after a temporary gain by the Gentile nations. In other words, it will be the same as Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse....
Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
We get another "When" here....
Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.
And methinks Paul got it right when he stated that if I belong to Christ, I inherit the promises to Abraham because I am Abraham's seed. (Gal 3:29).
That is a distinction without a difference. "Fullness" means "full inclusion."The Greek is "fullness," it is not "full inclusion."
The context iinvolves inclusion of a full *nation.* It is not half a nation, or a part of a nation. It is not just a surviving few of the nation. (Amos 3.12) It is a full nation, poltically, with all of the necessary natural resources and provisions for government and homes for the people. It is not "all" without a reference pointit is "all" the *nation.*Their "fullness" is all that God has ordained to come in, which is not necessarily all.
Their "full inclusion" can only be all.
No, it isn't saying "True Israel" will be saved, but the entire *nation* of Israel will be saved. "True Israel" are those who persevere in their spiritual calling *before* the nation has been saved politically or *after* the nation has been saved politically.That is all true Israel will be saved, apostate Israel for the last 2,000 years who reject the Messiah is not saved.
And? . . .he also did not slip in the (Jesus) into the verse Eph 2:8-9.Paul, unlike you, did not slip in the (i.e., Israel) into that verse.
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