If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

Gup20 · Jan 10, 2023

Saint Steven said:
To me, the afterlife is anything after this life on earth.

With that clarification,can you answer the question?

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

The second death, to you, is a forever burning hell, or annihilation?

I think "afterlife" is a misnomer. It is actually the "after death." The distinction is slight but important. "Afterlife" implies we have not been judged. Afterdeath seems more accurate. If we have already been judged with death, we have no hope after judgement is rendered for a new or different judgement. We are utterly hopeless and without help. This is exactly why Christ had to come. In Adam's death judgement, you can proclaim Jesus is Lord to no salvific effect. You have died because of the curse (for Adam's sin, not your own). Your actions (good or bad) have no hope of affecting your situation. After death, means after being judged. You can't get a new trial.

The Bible is clear that David, Abraham, and all others were in hell after their death. They had no hope, no chance of escape until Christ came. Christ abolished the first judgement (death) so that a new judgement can be rendered. He did this by causing the first death - Adam's corporate judgement - to become unjust. By a single righteous person existing in the world, a corporate judgement of death was no longer just. As long as no one righteous appeared, the corporate judgement was just and justified.

The second death comes AFTER all life on earth is resurrected back to life. Adam's corporate death judgement is vacated and new, individual judgements take place. It is this second judgement where Christ's righteousness (through faith) can be applied to individual believers. If you are judged in the second judgement (the Great White Throne judgement) to be wicked, you are judged with the second death. The second death is eternal torment in the Lake of Fire... it is NOT annihilation.

Saint Steven · Jan 10, 2023

Gup20 said:
I think "afterlife" is a misnomer. It is actually the "after death." The distinction is slight but important. "Afterlife" implies we have not been judged. Afterdeath seems more accurate.

Interesting point.
However, that is what it is called, the afterlife.
Possibly in response to the popular query, "Is there life after death?"

This statement by Jesus is interesting.

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Gup20 said:
The second death comes AFTER all life on earth is resurrected back to life. Adam's corporate death judgement is vacated and new, individual judgements take place. It is this second judgement where Christ's righteousness (through faith) can be applied to individual believers. If you are judged in the second judgement (the Great White Throne judgement) to be wicked, you are judged with the second death. The second death is eternal torment in the Lake of Fire... it is NOT annihilation.

So, from your perspective, where does the acknowledging "Jesus is Lord" aspect fit in the scheme of things?
And to what effect?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

Derf · Jan 10, 2023

Gup20 said:
By "afterlife" do you mean "after judgement?" -- death is a judgement. Why would you expect a different judgement after the first?

Jhn 3:18 NASB95 - 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 8:23-24 NASB95 - 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."

But we know death (Adam's judgment) will first be abolished.

1Co 15:26 NASB95 - 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Abolished means repealed. Vacated. Eliminated. This is what is meant by resurrection... ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and the wicked, from Adam's corporate judgment to face individual judgements (the Great White Throne judgement). Those who do not have Christ's righteousness individually applied to them AFTER being resurrected, will face a second death judgement.

And because that first death was first enacted (most people died), then was defeated (everyone is either resurrected or changed in some way so that death is no longer possible for them), the judgment Jesus and new testament writers talk about, must be for some other crime than the sins that resulted in the first death.

That crime appears to be rejecting Jesus as Lord, at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Lost Witness · Jan 10, 2023

Derf said:
And because that first death was first enacted (most people died), then was defeated (everyone is either resurrected or changed in some way so that death is no longer possible for them), the judgment Jesus and new testament writers talk about, must be for some other crime than the sins that resulted in the first death.

That crime appears to be rejecting Jesus as Lord, at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

No it's appointed that everyone shall die once, then after they die is when they are meant to face judgement, "revelations' is the only instance when some people won't 'die'
"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

Gup20 · Jan 10, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Interesting point.
However, that is what it is called, the afterlife.
Possibly in response to the popular query, "Is there life after death?"

This statement by Jesus is interesting.

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

So, from your perspective, where does the acknowledging "Jesus is Lord" aspect fit in the scheme of things?
And to what effect?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

"Is there an afterlife" ... does this question mean "is there resurrection back to life after you die" or does it mean "Is there a form of consciousness after death?" I've always taken this question to mean the latter. Said another way "what happens to you (your soul - mind will emotions - consciousness) after you die?"

Acknowledging Jesus is Lord - in my perspective - in regards to the statement "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord" will be after Jesus has subjected all things to Himself. This will, in all likelihood take place at the Great White Throne judgement as all come and kneel to receive their judgement.

2Ti 4:1 NASB95 - 1 I solemnly charge [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Rom 2:16 NASB95 - 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 20:11-12 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

You can bet they will kneel before the judge.

Gup20 · Jan 10, 2023

Lost Witness said:
No it's appointed that everyone shall die once, then after they die is when they are meant to face judgement, "revelations' is the only instance when some people won't 'die'
"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

Rev 2:11 NASB95 - 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Rev 20:6, 14 NASB95 - 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ... 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 NASB95 - 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Gup20 · Jan 10, 2023

Derf said:
And because that first death was first enacted (most people died), then was defeated (everyone is either resurrected or changed in some way so that death is no longer possible for them), the judgment Jesus and new testament writers talk about, must be for some other crime than the sins that resulted in the first death.

That crime appears to be rejecting Jesus as Lord, at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Among other things:

Rev 21:8 NASB95 - 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Derf · Jan 10, 2023

Gup20 said:
Among other things:

Rev 21:8 NASB95 - 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Those are all things that they would not be doing if they were willing for Jesus to be their Lord. And the second death is well defined--in my opinion because the first kind of death is no longer available (it's defeated and thrown in lake of fire).

Derf · Jan 10, 2023

Lost Witness said:
No it's appointed that everyone shall die once, then after they die is when they are meant to face judgement, "revelations' is the only instance when some people won't 'die'
"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

I'm in agreement with everything you said except for the "no" at the beginning. Can you tell me why what you said is not possible if what I said is true?

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Gup20 said:
"Is there an afterlife" ... does this question mean "is there resurrection back to life after you die" or does it mean "Is there a form of consciousness after death?" I've always taken this question to mean the latter. Said another way "what happens to you (your soul - mind will emotions - consciousness) after you die?"

I agree. "... there a form of consciousness after death..."
My theory on the soul and mind is that the soul is our personal identity, our individuality.
This is partnered with our mind. So, the physical make up plus our brain data. (mind, will, emotions, consciousness, personality...)

People reporting NDEs recall the doctors working on them. Not possible unless the mind can still operate apart from the brain.
Therefore, the brain operates as an organic computer hard drive. When the physical body dies, the data remains.
Uploaded to a spiritual body restores the whole being.

If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? - LOL

Gup20 said:
Acknowledging Jesus is Lord - in my perspective - in regards to the statement "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord" will be after Jesus has subjected all things to Himself. This will, in all likelihood take place at the Great White Throne judgement as all come and kneel to receive their judgement.

The NT Greek word actually carries a different meaning. Definition below. (Strong's Concordance)

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Gup20 said:
You can bet they will kneel before the judge.

Based on the definition above and some additional scripture...

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Gup20 · Jan 11, 2023

Saint Steven said:
I agree. "... there a form of consciousness after death..."
My theory on the soul and mind is that the soul is our personal identity, our individuality.
This is partnered with our mind. So, the physical make up plus our brain data. (mind, will, emotions, consciousness, personality...)

People reporting NDEs recall the doctors working on them. Not possible unless the mind can still operate apart from the brain.
Therefore, the brain operates as an organic computer hard drive. When the physical body dies, the data remains.
Uploaded to a spiritual body restores the whole being.

If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? - LOL

I would tend to agree with this. I think if you want to think about it this way; the brain is the physical hardware, while the 'soul' (the mind, will, emotions) is the operating system which tells it what to do.

Saint Steven said:
The NT Greek word actually carries a different meaning. Definition below. (Strong's Concordance)

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Seems fine to me. Bowing, submission, agreeing or confessing... all seem to indicate surrender to the truth.

Saint Steven said:
Based on the definition above and some additional scripture...

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Can the dead "declare with their mouth" that Jesus is lord? Does a spirit have a 'mouth'? There are a couple scriptures that seem to indicate the decision time is limited to while you live on the earth.

Jhn 8:21, 24 NASB95 - 21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." ... 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."

This seems to indicate that the time of choosing to believe is limited to while you live on the earth, and that once you die you are unable to make an effectual choice.

Derf · Jan 11, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Interesting point.
However, that is what it is called, the afterlife.

That's the normal verbiage, according to custom, but is custom a good source of truth? Not always. Muslim custom says you can get to heaven by being a suicide bomber. The bible calls it "in the resurrection", which presupposes a return to life after death. Of only the body dies, then "in the resurrection" must mean after the body is resurrected, because the soul never was dead. You can't resurrect something that never died.

Saint Steven said:
Possibly in response to the popular query, "Is there life after death?"

This statement by Jesus is interesting.

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Do you have a good explanation for what "The dead rise" means? If it means that they aren't really dead, then how do they rise?

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Gup20 said:
Can the dead "declare with their mouth" that Jesus is lord? Does a spirit have a 'mouth'? There are a couple scriptures that seem to indicate the decision time is limited to while you live on the earth.

Notice that the scripture in question includes "under the earth". (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Derf said:
Muslim custom says you can get to heaven by being a suicide bomber.

I tried that... it didn't work. - LOL

They hired me to blow up a school bus. All I did was burn my lips on the exhaust pipe.

Derf · Jan 11, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Notice that the scripture in question includes "under the earth". (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I think under the earth refers to those who will be resurrected. When he said it, they were under the earth, but that doesn't mean they will be forever under the earth--they will be resurrected.

Saint Steven · Jan 12, 2023

Derf said:
I think under the earth refers to those who will be resurrected. When he said it, they were under the earth, but that doesn't mean they will be forever under the earth--they will be resurrected.

So, you don't believe in the Harrowing of Hell?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Gup20 · Jan 12, 2023

Saint Steven said:
So, you don't believe in the Harrowing of Hell?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

I agree... though I would further say the "realm of the dead" was Sheol or Hades (Hell).

Psa 16:10 NASB95 - 10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

Act 2:27 NASB95 - 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

Gup20 · Jan 12, 2023

Derf said:
I think under the earth refers to those who will be resurrected. When he said it, they were under the earth, but that doesn't mean they will be forever under the earth--they will be resurrected.

ALL will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

IoanC · Jan 12, 2023

Unintentional or uninformed mistakes are forgiven by God. It is when someone clearly and knowingly sins against God for the joy of it wishing to be an enemy of God, that God can no longer forgive.

Derf · Jan 12, 2023

Gup20 said:
ALL will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Yes, and ALL will be required to bend the knee to Christ Jesus, or else they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

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