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Do you think God didn't anticipate, even expect, what happened? Was it outside his plan?
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Do you think God didn't anticipate, even expect, what happened? Was it outside his plan?Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, banned from the Tree of Life, condemned to die, caused all creation to be cursed, and passed on "sin and death" to all human beings that followed. So God answered the question about "what consequences are appropriate".
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?
Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...
It's an uninformed free-will decision.
Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)
If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...
Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...
BINGO!Free will seems to me to be a misnomer; In the case of choosing between being with God, and being against God, the default being the second death; only a fool would make the choice uninformed; the uninformed are usually unaware a choice is required.
If I kidnap a person off the street and lock them in my basement, they would initially fear and hate me.I would say, yes. Because UR would have a corrective period for us all to work through those issues. Everyone will be salted with fire.
How does God's Sovereignty or omniscience change the fact that God already passed judgement on the sin of Adam and Eve and thus declared what is an "appropriate punishment"?Do you think God didn't anticipate, even expect, what happened? Was it outside his plan?
That's a great question, thanks.If I kidnap a person off the street and lock them in my basement, they would initially fear and hate me.
How long do you think that I would need to punish them before they loved me the way that we love Jesus?
[I am having trouble seeing how this "salted with fire" gets people from Romans 1:18-32 (in life) to UR (in eternity) using "gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8, 13, 22, 24, 25) in between.]
Nonsense. Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit, they were under no compulsion or coercion to do it, and they did it anyway; that's the definition of a free-will decision.It's an uninformed free-will decision.
We tend to forget that one of the best options in judgment is mercy.How does God's Sovereignty or omniscience change the fact that God already passed judgement on the sin of Adam and Eve and thus declared what is an "appropriate punishment"?
On the contrary.Nonsense. Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit, they were under no compulsion or coercion to do it, and they did it anyway; that's the definition of a free-will decision.
The fact that that we rarely (in fact, never) fully understand the consequences of our decisions doesn't mean that we therefore cannot make them freely; that has nothing to do with it.
I am pretty sure that I disagree with your exegesis on the nature of “hell”, however, that is not the same as not understanding your position.Since this work will be restorative and redemptive, rather than a pointless punitive shaming and torture, the end result will be beautiful.
Any questions?
We seem to be at an impasse. - LOLThat has nothing to do with it.
You have failed to acknowledge that our free-will choices are uninformed.On the contrary.
"Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit..." Yes, of course. That's not the point.
The point is that they didn't fully understand the consequences. The narrative makes this clear.
And God said nothing about their actions resulting in the Fall of humankind. That was a nice bonus.
Not to mention pain in childbirth. Did Eve know that was coming? Food by the sweat of your brow?
Thorns and thistles? Shall I continue?
The Adam and Eve story is complicated, but God's communication is perfect. Adam's communication with Eve was not perfect and we do not know if God left for Adam the communication of the tree to Eve, we might have some miscommunication. This gets into the responsibilities of a husband and wife plus the differences between a man and a woman remember Eve is not just another Adam with different plumbing.Would you have eaten the fruit if you knew it meant certain death?
No! There is always more we can know, but what we do know is enough to make our choice, more information would not change our response (which God would know from knowing our hearts). Yes, those that refused to go made that the free will choice from the information they had and more information would not change their response. What other information could you give those who refused (include the older son in the prodigal son story) for them to be happy at the banquet?Are you saying they were fully informed? In that case, would anyone in their right mind not go?
Right. I agree. We don't know for sure, but sure seems like it.Adam's communication with Eve was not perfect and we do not know if God left for Adam the communication of the tree to Eve, we might have some miscommunication.
Exactly. That's an important clue.Where did the "cannot touch the tree" come from?
I differ with you on that point. Did he know a mistake would mean the Fall of humankind?Yes! Adam fully knew what he was doing
Nice. Love that. - LOLThe original Romeo and Juliet story.
Do you think people are generally happy with the consequences of their decisions?No! There is always more we can know, but what we do know is enough to make our choice, more information would not change our response (which God would know from knowing our hearts). Yes, those that refused to go made that the free will choice from the information they had and more information would not change their response. What other information could you give those who refused (include the older son in the prodigal son story) for them to be happy at the banquet?
Let's just say the older son in the prodigal son parable decides not to go to the party, in some ways he would want to go to such a wonderful party, but he would not be happy at the party, so he will not go, the consequences further division with the father and his brother. When we are talking about salvation decisions, we are really talking about what makes your happy. People who refuse to humbly accept God's Love in the form of forgiveness as pure undeserved charity are not going to be happy in heaven where the only Love being exchanged is Godly type Love.Do you think people a generally happy with the consequences of their decisions?
This is another huge topic. I do not call it a "fall" but a transition. When my children first sinned, I did not consider it a "fall" but a transition into a different mature situation.I differ with you on that point. Did he know a mistake would mean the Fall of humankind?
And he would eat by the sweat of his brow? Or that his wife would have life-threatening and painful childbirth?
I'm trying to wrap my head around how one can be ignorant of something yet make a choice for or against it. Are you sure you don't mean incorrectly informed? Afterall, Eve made the decision she did based on the information that appealed to her the most. Do you think she understood what it meant to be "as wise as God" anymore than she understood death? At the end of the day, she took that fruit on the basis of it's appeal to her own understanding. It's not like the truth isn't out there. If one wants to know the truth so they can be informed, God is not stopping them.What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?
Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...
It's an uninformed free-will decision.
Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)
If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...
Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...
Set up to fail?God knew Adam and Eve would not fulfill their objective and they would sin given the scenario they were in.
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