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If Christians Have Strong Faith in Their God...
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<blockquote data-quote="sanjaya1984" data-source="post: 56610680" data-attributes="member: 270473"><p>Of course. There's no expectation on your part to know terribly much about American politics; I can't say I am terribly informed about the goings on of Australian government myself.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I see, and it would appear I've misinterpreted your earlier point. But to clarify on my part, I am by no means aggrivated by anything you've said. I know full well what evangelical Christianity has to say about people of my religion, and likely nothing you say will surprise me. And as I see it, insofar as it doesn't affect Hindus' ability to practice our religion freely, it doesn't really matter to me what you believe about us or what you teach in your churches. That is purely your own affair. It is only evangelical behavior towards Hindus, specifically your missionary activities among Indian communities, which concerns me.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>If you say so. Your belief about the morality of uttering Hindu prayers is entirely your concern. Personally I find the Christian idea of true and false gods to be a bit absurd. One may have an incorrect conception of God (thus I wouldn't go so far as to say I consider Christianity a true religion), but I do not subscribe to the idea that God will ignore anyone's prayer on the basis of his theological views. Feel free to disagree with me, and continue teaching whatever you wish in your churches.</p><p> </p><p>The pertinent question is: how are your beliefs going to influence your actions? I find it rather inconsistent for an evangelical church to condemn a Hindu prayer in the U.S. Senate (or any other expression of Hinduism in America) whilst sending missionaries to India and demanding the protection of India's secular government. It would be more consistent to simply demand that every government adopt Christian laws. Given that Christians have the freedom to publically practice their religion in a Hindu-majority country, I wonder why evangelicals are so surprised that the U.S. government affords the same right to American Hindus. Perhaps you can shed some light on this issue.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Personally I don't have an opinion on that. But thanks for clarifying.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Perhaps I can alleviate your fears. I've read your entire Bible, but I have no desire to convert evangelical Christians to any other religion, or to alter their beliefs. As I mentioned above, I'm far more concerned with the behavior of evangelical Christians than what they believe. While I don't regard your path as either straight nor narrow, you won't find me persuading anyone to deviate from it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Slightly off topic, but can I take this to mean that you don't subscribe to the standard Christian notion of intrinsic human sinfulness?</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I think you may be neglecting the third option: those of us who are non-Christian theists of any kind simply adhere to a spiritual teaching that doesn't come from the Bible. I don't sit around inventing ideas about the nature of God and take them as truth. Rather I find these truths in my own religion's Scriptures and teachers. Perhaps I find these to be better sources of spiritual knowledge than the Bible, but I am certainly not practicing the sort of spiritual anarchy to which you allude. I fear you may be projecting an atheistic worldview onto non-Christian theists.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Let me see if I understand this. A Jew who prays is speaking to the true God, and that God will nonetheless send him to eternal hell for not believing in Jesus. A Hindu who prays is speaking to a false god, and the true God will send him to hell for not believing the right things about Jesus. Is this correct?</p><p> </p><p>I don't see how there is effectively any difference, but that's none of my business. But perhaps I can see how this would affect your attitude towards public expressions of Judaism and Hinduism respectively. If I'm reading you right (please correct me if I'm not), evangelicals do not care about the personal religious beliefs of the person uttering the public prayer. An atheist or other non-Christian who prayed a Jewish prayer in public American function would be welcomed by evangelicals, but a theist who did not pray a Jewish or Christian prayer is not welcome. Is this right?</p><p> </p><p>If you don't mind a bit of editorial commentary on my part, it seems to me that this position doesn't advance the cause of public displays of Christianity in America. If you go and solicit the average Hindu to convert to Christianity, he'll probably hear you out, and then politely tell you that he has no interest in conversion. Try the same thing with your average Jew, and he'll call you the reincarnation of Adolf Hiter, and proceed to tell you why people like you were responsible for the Holocaust. If you'll allow me to present an illustration: when I was growing up as an American Hindu, I of course grew up around Christians. My parents never worried about shielding me from Christianity; they just figured (correctly) that if they take me to temple and do poojas at home, I'll end up staying on the "straight and narrow" path of Hinduism. When my brother took piano lessons, recitals or other events would sometimes be in churches, complete with Christians rituals. We didn't worry about him being exposed to a foreign religion or anything; we just didn't believe in conversion, and left it at that. Now, one of my best friends was Jewish. His parents kept him away from churches, and wouldn't let him anywhere near a Christian Bible. In fact, when <em>my</em> family celebrated Christmas, he wasn't allowed to come over. All this despite that our recognition of Christmas was purely as a civic holiday! I've noticed that evangelicals have an immense fascination with Jews, almost to the point of obsession. Evangelicals fall all over Jews and regard them as kindred spirits. But ask a Jew about Jesus, and the response will range from absolute apathy to outright hostility. Yet evangelicals love Jews, solely because you happen to share some common Scripture. Again, your beliefs are your business, but I find it peculiar.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Well as I've said, I read your Bible. Can't say whether I read it "in the name of Jesus the Christ," since I'm not sure what that means. Some people have told me that in order to understand the Bible I have to "have the Holy Spirit," i.e. become a Christian. That's obviously not something I'm going to do. However, I do find the following phrase from your Bible to be interesting:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> gods they had not known, </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> gods that recently appeared, </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> gods your ancestors did not fear. (Deuteronomy 32:17)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>In this passage of your Bible, there seems to be an indication that it is bad to abandon the heritage of your people and adopt a new religion. Given the Old Testament's emphasis on familial solidarity and respect for the older generation, this makes a good deal of sense. This is actually one of the most important reasons for which I do not convert to Christianity. To speak in your language, it's a religion that has recently appeared and which my ancestors did not practice. Indian culture is rich with tradition, history, and ritualism. Hinduism is a far more ancient religion than Christianity, and Indians were worshiping God according to the teachings of the Vedas when even the Jews did not have monotheism. To convert to Christianity is to lose this entire culture. You make these claims that Hinduism is at best an incorrect religion and that we all need to convert to Christianity. I of course respect your right to believe that, but do you see why we do not ultimately do as you request?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="sanjaya1984, post: 56610680, member: 270473"] Of course. There's no expectation on your part to know terribly much about American politics; I can't say I am terribly informed about the goings on of Australian government myself. I see, and it would appear I've misinterpreted your earlier point. But to clarify on my part, I am by no means aggrivated by anything you've said. I know full well what evangelical Christianity has to say about people of my religion, and likely nothing you say will surprise me. And as I see it, insofar as it doesn't affect Hindus' ability to practice our religion freely, it doesn't really matter to me what you believe about us or what you teach in your churches. That is purely your own affair. It is only evangelical behavior towards Hindus, specifically your missionary activities among Indian communities, which concerns me. If you say so. Your belief about the morality of uttering Hindu prayers is entirely your concern. Personally I find the Christian idea of true and false gods to be a bit absurd. One may have an incorrect conception of God (thus I wouldn't go so far as to say I consider Christianity a true religion), but I do not subscribe to the idea that God will ignore anyone's prayer on the basis of his theological views. Feel free to disagree with me, and continue teaching whatever you wish in your churches. The pertinent question is: how are your beliefs going to influence your actions? I find it rather inconsistent for an evangelical church to condemn a Hindu prayer in the U.S. Senate (or any other expression of Hinduism in America) whilst sending missionaries to India and demanding the protection of India's secular government. It would be more consistent to simply demand that every government adopt Christian laws. Given that Christians have the freedom to publically practice their religion in a Hindu-majority country, I wonder why evangelicals are so surprised that the U.S. government affords the same right to American Hindus. Perhaps you can shed some light on this issue. Personally I don't have an opinion on that. But thanks for clarifying. Perhaps I can alleviate your fears. I've read your entire Bible, but I have no desire to convert evangelical Christians to any other religion, or to alter their beliefs. As I mentioned above, I'm far more concerned with the behavior of evangelical Christians than what they believe. While I don't regard your path as either straight nor narrow, you won't find me persuading anyone to deviate from it. Slightly off topic, but can I take this to mean that you don't subscribe to the standard Christian notion of intrinsic human sinfulness? I think you may be neglecting the third option: those of us who are non-Christian theists of any kind simply adhere to a spiritual teaching that doesn't come from the Bible. I don't sit around inventing ideas about the nature of God and take them as truth. Rather I find these truths in my own religion's Scriptures and teachers. Perhaps I find these to be better sources of spiritual knowledge than the Bible, but I am certainly not practicing the sort of spiritual anarchy to which you allude. I fear you may be projecting an atheistic worldview onto non-Christian theists. Let me see if I understand this. A Jew who prays is speaking to the true God, and that God will nonetheless send him to eternal hell for not believing in Jesus. A Hindu who prays is speaking to a false god, and the true God will send him to hell for not believing the right things about Jesus. Is this correct? I don't see how there is effectively any difference, but that's none of my business. But perhaps I can see how this would affect your attitude towards public expressions of Judaism and Hinduism respectively. If I'm reading you right (please correct me if I'm not), evangelicals do not care about the personal religious beliefs of the person uttering the public prayer. An atheist or other non-Christian who prayed a Jewish prayer in public American function would be welcomed by evangelicals, but a theist who did not pray a Jewish or Christian prayer is not welcome. Is this right? If you don't mind a bit of editorial commentary on my part, it seems to me that this position doesn't advance the cause of public displays of Christianity in America. If you go and solicit the average Hindu to convert to Christianity, he'll probably hear you out, and then politely tell you that he has no interest in conversion. Try the same thing with your average Jew, and he'll call you the reincarnation of Adolf Hiter, and proceed to tell you why people like you were responsible for the Holocaust. If you'll allow me to present an illustration: when I was growing up as an American Hindu, I of course grew up around Christians. My parents never worried about shielding me from Christianity; they just figured (correctly) that if they take me to temple and do poojas at home, I'll end up staying on the "straight and narrow" path of Hinduism. When my brother took piano lessons, recitals or other events would sometimes be in churches, complete with Christians rituals. We didn't worry about him being exposed to a foreign religion or anything; we just didn't believe in conversion, and left it at that. Now, one of my best friends was Jewish. His parents kept him away from churches, and wouldn't let him anywhere near a Christian Bible. In fact, when [I]my[/I] family celebrated Christmas, he wasn't allowed to come over. All this despite that our recognition of Christmas was purely as a civic holiday! I've noticed that evangelicals have an immense fascination with Jews, almost to the point of obsession. Evangelicals fall all over Jews and regard them as kindred spirits. But ask a Jew about Jesus, and the response will range from absolute apathy to outright hostility. Yet evangelicals love Jews, solely because you happen to share some common Scripture. Again, your beliefs are your business, but I find it peculiar. Well as I've said, I read your Bible. Can't say whether I read it "in the name of Jesus the Christ," since I'm not sure what that means. Some people have told me that in order to understand the Bible I have to "have the Holy Spirit," i.e. become a Christian. That's obviously not something I'm going to do. However, I do find the following phrase from your Bible to be interesting: [INDENT]They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear. (Deuteronomy 32:17) [/INDENT]In this passage of your Bible, there seems to be an indication that it is bad to abandon the heritage of your people and adopt a new religion. Given the Old Testament's emphasis on familial solidarity and respect for the older generation, this makes a good deal of sense. This is actually one of the most important reasons for which I do not convert to Christianity. To speak in your language, it's a religion that has recently appeared and which my ancestors did not practice. Indian culture is rich with tradition, history, and ritualism. Hinduism is a far more ancient religion than Christianity, and Indians were worshiping God according to the teachings of the Vedas when even the Jews did not have monotheism. To convert to Christianity is to lose this entire culture. You make these claims that Hinduism is at best an incorrect religion and that we all need to convert to Christianity. I of course respect your right to believe that, but do you see why we do not ultimately do as you request? [/QUOTE]
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