If Christ existed before earthly birth, did He not interact with humans?

Neogaia777 · Jan 15, 2017

Hank77 said:
Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Is his the one and only name, we would be in wonder of, or cause us to wonder or ponder...?

God Bless!

Hank77 · Jan 15, 2017

Aryeh said:
In the book of Enoch, a lot of things are made clearer than in the cannon (at least, in my opinion.) It is too bad that it is not considered cannon anymore in the West.

In the books of Enoch that mirror the five first books of the OT (and even other places,) there is an entity called the Ancient of Days, and an entity called The Lord of Spirits.

They are distinct; the Ancient of Days is the One who interacts with creation, the patriarchs, was around for the human interactions on earth attributed to God (or angels.) He gave law, declared and commanded. The Ancient of Days was also show as "answering" only to the Lord of Spirits.

The Lord of Spirits interacts with the angels, principalities, archons, powers, etc. in the same way the Ancient of Days interacts with creation.

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father, and the Ancient of Days is Christ.

Dan_7:9 `I was seeing till that thrones have been thrown down, and the Ancient of Days is seated, His garment as snow is white, and the hair of his head is as pure wool, His throne flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.

Neogaia777 · Jan 16, 2017

Hank77 said:
Dan_7:9 `I was seeing till that thrones have been thrown down, and the Ancient of Days is seated, His garment as snow is white, and the hair of his head is as pure wool, His throne flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.

Was Adam's God, the one he communed with and/or walked with, the ancient of days, or the Lord of spirits?

Hank77 · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Is his the one and only name, we would be in wonder of, or cause us to wonder or ponder...?

God Bless!

Here is that scripture in Young's Literal Translation..
Jdg 13:18 And the messenger of Yehovah saith to him, `Why is this--thou dost ask for My name? --and it is Wonderful.'

I don't see any pondering. The messanger asks why they want to know. Then says his name is wonderful. Isaiah says this is one of the names that the Messiah would be called.

Hank77 · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Was Adam's God, the one he communed with and/or walked with, the ancient of days, or the Lord of spirits?

I haven't read Enoch. My post was merely for the poster as a reference for him.

Neogaia777 · Jan 16, 2017

Hank77 said:
Here is that scripture in Young's Literal Translation..
Jdg 13:18 And the messenger of Yehovah saith to him, `Why is this--thou dost ask for My name? --and it is Wonderful.'

I don't see any pondering. The messanger asks why they want to know. Then says his name is wonderful. Isaiah says this is one of the names that the Messiah would be called.

One of many names, (for he (Christ) is all names, and all other names are him, or extensions of him), is kinda my point...

Neogaia777 · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Interesting...? Got a good link to look into those...? Are they valid books...?

Was Adam with the ancient of days, or the Lord of spirits as his God...?

God Bless!

Aryeh said:
In the book of Enoch, a lot of things are made clearer than in the cannon (at least, in my opinion.) It is too bad that it is not considered cannon anymore in the West.

In the books of Enoch that mirror the five first books of the OT (and even other places,) there is an entity called the Ancient of Days, and an entity called The Lord of Spirits.

They are distinct; the Ancient of Days is the One who interacts with creation, the patriarchs, was around for the human interactions on earth attributed to God (or angels.) He gave law, declared and commanded. The Ancient of Days was also show as "answering" only to the Lord of Spirits.

The Lord of Spirits interacts with the angels, principalities, archons, powers, etc. in the same way the Ancient of Days interacts with creation.

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father, and the Ancient of Days is Christ.

Then, The Ancient of Days is a physical being, and the Lord of Spirits is not...?

What about before anything was created...? Did the Ancient of Days exist then, at that time...?

I Believe in John's gospel, all of it... And according to John's gospel (And Jesus says John and his gospel is "the only true witness of him" (Christ)... According to his gospel, Jesus was before anything else was, with the Father, so he must have been spirit with him, at that time... Maybe, once things were created, The Son "stepped into" the physical (realm) perhaps then adopting the Name, "Ancient of Days" but, I believe, according to John's gospel, that he (Jesus) had existence prior to anything physical also...

What's your take...?

God Bless!

Aryeh · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Then, The Ancient of Days is a physical being, and the Lord of Spirits is not...?

What about before anything was created...? Did the Ancient of Days exist then, at that time...?

The Ancient of Days is the Wisdom of God - literal word of God. He is the entity that was with God, and was God in the beginning.

The Word of God, or Ancient of Days is His actual name. We call Him Christ for what He did on this planet as a human. But, He is the One who has been with the Most High God the Father since the beginning.

The Ancient of Days was always going to be the "avatar" of God for us - even before He was the Christ on earth, and was the Ancient of Days, or the Word of God in the Old Testament.

He isn't just the "physical" part of God, He actually IS God. One of His main jobs may be the representation of God to us physical creatures in the physical cosmos, but He sits right next to God the Father - the only one authorised to do so.

I Believe in John's gospel, all of it... And according to John's gospel (And Jesus says John and his gospel is "the only true witness of him" (Christ)... According to his gospel, Jesus was before anything else was, with the Father, so he must have been spirit with him, at that time... Maybe, once things were created, The Son "stepped into" the physical (realm) perhaps then adopting the Name, "Ancient of Days" but, I believe, according to John's gospel, that he (Jesus) had existence prior to anything physical also...

What's your take...?

God Bless!

The one called Christ existed as the Word of God since the beginning - even before. He is God.

We know Him more colloquially as Christ for what He did here, but He has always been the Ancient of Days/Word of God.

Aryeh · Jan 16, 2017

Hank77 said:
Dan_7:9 `I was seeing till that thrones have been thrown down, and the Ancient of Days is seated, His garment as snow is white, and the hair of his head is as pure wool, His throne flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.

Yes. This, and it is in the canon.

Neogaia777 · Jan 16, 2017

Aryeh said:
The Ancient of Days is the Wisdom of God - literal word of God. He is the entity that was with God, and was God in the beginning.

The Word of God, or Ancient of Days is His actual name. We call Him Christ for what He did on this planet as a human. But, He is the One who has been with the Most High God the Father since the beginning.

The Ancient of Days was always going to be the "avatar" of God for us - even before He was the Christ on earth, and was the Ancient of Days, or the Word of God in the Old Testament.

He isn't just the "physical" part of God, He actually IS God. One of His main jobs may be the representation of God to us physical creatures in the physical cosmos, but He sits right next to God the Father - the only one authorised to do so.

The one called Christ existed as the Word of God since the beginning - even before. He is God.

We know Him more colloquially as Christ for what He did here, but He has always been the Ancient of Days/Word of God.

What is the difference between the Ancient of Days, and the Lord of Spirits...?

Was/is Jesus a spirit...?

Which one was, how were they, with Adam...?

It is my belief that angels are/is his/their "avatars"...

Do you have a good link so I could get a look at the book(s)(?) of Enoch...?

Aryeh · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
What is the difference between the Ancient of Days, and the Lord of Spirits...?

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father.
The Ancient of Days is Christ.

Was/is Jesus a spirit...?

The Ancient of Days is a spirit, and has been the "right hand man" of the Lord of Spirits/God the Father since the beginning. They are one, and He literally sits right next to the Lord of Spirits.

Christ, as we know Him, was a son of Man. As per the model Adam was always designed to be, Christ died, but as a consequence of His perfection was resurrected to a full spiritual entity indwelling in a physical body.

So, Christ, the Son of Man, is what True Adam is - a full spirit indwelling in a human body on this planet. As a result, the Son of Man has a transfigured body that is glorious.

But, Christ has always existed as the Ancient of Days - this is the paradox.

Which one was, how were they, with Adam...?

The Ancient of Days literally walked with Adam and Eve before they fell. Once they sinned, they were no longer qualified to withstand His glory - literally. As someone said, His glory also includes thundering and lightening - and a shine so pure it destroys all things impure.

After Adam, it was still the Ancient of Days - who would later be called Christ.

This is why He was so frustrated with the disciples and Pharisees: Christ was the One who gave the law to Moses. He was the One who instructed the prophets and priests. He was the One who gave the prophecy about Himself! So, when He finally comes as Christ, and no one recognizes Him it is almost a slap in the face.

When Adam and Eve had their God Given bodies - ones clothes in light of their own - it wasn't a big deal. (Note, they lost this luminescent raiment, hence they realized they were naked.)

It is my belief that angels are/is his/their "avatars"...

What makes the Ancient of Days a special Avatar of God is that He is the only One who can identify as God Himself. Everyone else only speaks on his behalf.

Do you have a good link so I could get a look at the book(s)(?) of Enoch...?[/QUOTE]

Book of Enoch | Read online or download the Book of Enoch PDF, EPUB or .MOBI (Kindle)

HighwayMan · Jan 16, 2017

Lol.

It seems that most people have taken the question to mean "where is Jesus in the Old Testament?"

But what I was getting at, as a question, is more could Jesus, in one form of another, have interacted with people and/or beliefs not found in the Bible all together? And therefore some ancient or possibly still existing religions/beliefs contain some of that inspiration? Or is Jesus's entire involvement with mankind from beginning to end confined to the pages of the written down Bible, as we have it today?

hedrick · Jan 16, 2017

Appearance in the OT and elsewhere seem pretty speculative to me. I think Biblically you can make a case that the Word came through prophets. See e.g. Luke 11:49, but it also seems implicit in the definition of Word. (My citation of this passage assumes that Wisdom is identified with Christ. I believe that's an NT concept.)

Hebrews 1:3 also says not only that the world was created through him but that he sustains it.

AV1611VET · Jan 16, 2017

HighwayMan said:
But what I was getting at, as a question, is more could Jesus, in one form of another, have interacted with people and/or beliefs not found in the Bible all together?

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

HighwayMan said:
And therefore some ancient or possibly still existing religions/beliefs contain some of that inspiration?

I wish.

If that were true, then we wouldn't have any cults.

HighwayMan said:
Or is Jesus's entire involvement with mankind from beginning to end confined to the pages of the written down Bible, as we have it today?

I would say that's a pretty accurate statement.

And despite the abovementioned passage I quoted, if someone were to tell me he is in a religion based on Jesus' "other" appearances that were not recorded in the Bible, I wouldn't believe him.

AV1611VET · Jan 16, 2017

There's a ten-syllable doctrine known as ontological subordination.

It says that the Godhead operates with one Person in the foreground, while the other Two are in the background, making "cameo appearances."

In the Old Testament, we see God the Father operating, with the other Two making "cameo appearances" at times.

In the Gospel era, we see Jesus at the forefront, with the other Two in the background.

Following that, in the book of Acts, we see the Holy Ghost in the foreground, with the other Two in the background.

After this dispensation (Grace) ends, we see Jesus in the foreground for a thousand years.

hedrick · Jan 16, 2017

AV1611VET said:
There's a ten-syllable doctrine known as ontological subordination.

Are you sure you're using the term you intended? Ontological subordination is normally considered unorthodox. I think you're talking about some kind of functional subordination, though not in the usual sense.

Ontology, in this context, refers to the Trinity's eternal nature. Giving the persons special roles would be either economic or functional subordination.

AV1611VET · Jan 16, 2017

hedrick said:
Are you sure you're using the term you intended?

I guess not.

I just read "subordinationism" on Wikipedia, and I don't like being associated with it.

HOWEVER, I do like the term "relational subordination," that was used in the early centuries.

In any event, I believe that's how the Godhead operated throughout history: One Member being in the forefront, while the other Two were in the background.

And I say this, of course, with respect.

roamer_1 · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Isn't it that, in the OT only angels accepted worship, but in the NT do not any longer? Due to ignorance?

No. It is my opinion that only ONE 'angel' was seen accepting worship - and that one was Yeshua.

Your mistake is in supposing 'angel' to be but one thing - the word used as 'angel' simply put, means 'messenger' - There are many kinds (to include hoomins) that can be a messenger/angel/mal'akh . Even within the heavenly host, there are many types and classes. So to envision the Nordic, white-winged, white robed creature that Christendom traditionally acclaims is completely mistaken in every case...

roamer_1 · Jan 16, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Do you have examples where or when an OT angel rejected worship?

None that come readily to mind.

YHWH is a spirit, and, in order to take form has to become as or like an angel, or possess one of the extensions of his body (an angel) to relate to us, right?

That does not necessarily follow - Angelic beings are also spirits, but were capable of becoming corporeal.

And I have never, ever heard of the Father possessing anyone.

Do you have examples where or when an angel (of the Lord) appeared to someone in the OT accepted worship and said it's name was YHWH?

Of course - that was my opening point. The burning bush - there is only one being in the bush, who is described as the Angel of the Lord:

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

He calls himself Elohim, God of Abraham

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

He calls himself I AM and YHWH:

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

He is BOTH an Angel of YHWH and YHWH, as defined.

RDKirk · Jan 16, 2017

HighwayMan said:
But what I was getting at, as a question, is more could Jesus, in one form of another, have interacted with people and/or beliefs not found in the Bible all together? And therefore some ancient or possibly still existing religions/beliefs contain some of that inspiration? Or is Jesus's entire involvement with mankind from beginning to end confined to the pages of the written down Bible, as we have it today?

Only where it functions like the primitive religion of Job, pointing to a single Creator and expressing a need for a Mediator who can touch both man and the Creator.

Job's is the example of such a religion.

If Christ existed before earthly birth, did He not interact with humans?

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