If Calvinism was true, no-one would go to hell

Hammster said:

You can do all things with verses taken out of context (and do funky things with the text).

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True and if I ever do that -- I think someone will point to some details to show I have done it.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

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You were doing so well, imo, until the last paragraph.
Where does it say that everyone is not going to heaven?

Now, don’t get me wrong, I believe that everyone is not going to heaven, sadly.
But I just don’t know off the top of my head where that is specifically stated in the Bible.

Other than that small question, I have to say I found your post quite well done.

Also, I’m not sure, but are there many people who believe in Calvinism any more?

.Jeremiah. said:

You were doing so well, imo, until the last paragraph.
Where does it say that everyone is not going to heaven?

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Matt 7 - the MANY on the road to hell and the FEW enter through the narrow gate that leads to life.
Rev 13 - at the end - the entire world is taken into deception.
Matt 24 - deception so powerful that if possible it would deceive the very elect.
2 Thess 2 - "all power signs and wonders" - deception that overpowers those who "perish because they did not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved". God himself "turns them over to strong delusion"

BobRyan said:

Matt 7 - the MANY on the road to hell and the FEW enter through the narrow gate that leads to life.
Rev 13 - at the end - the entire world is taken into deception.
Matt 24 - deception so powerful that if possible it would deceive the very elect.
2 Thess 2 - "all power signs and wonders" - deception that overpowers those who "perish because they did not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved". God himself "turns them over to strong delusion"

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Oh good, thanks for that, BobRyan.

I really knew there would be plenty of verses, but a bit tired to make much effort right now. Getting ready for sleep.

BobRyan said:

I am happy with that as the "answer" to the texts presented if you are. I think it is a good example of where the gap is.

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Do you mean the verses quoted without context or explanation?

BobRyan said:

True and if I ever do that -- I think someone will point to some details to show I have done it.

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Well, since you provided no context, and posted with a lot of color and underlining and such, consider it pointed out.

Lifelong_sinner said:

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world. It seems like every other day there is a new thread about why calvinism is false.

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To Quote a great evangelist and preacher:

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians.” It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

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Good Day,

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

BBAS 64 said:

To Quote a great evangelist and preacher:

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians.” It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

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But what about Whitfield’s best friend and fellow Methodist, indeed the founder of Methodism, John Wesley, with whom he famously made a pact to “agree to disagree” on Calvinism?

The Liturgist said:

But what about Whitfield’s best friend and fellow Methodist, indeed the founder of Methodism, John Wesley, with whom he famously made a pact to “agree to disagree” on Calvinism?

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?? What about him —why mention Wesley, what is your point?

.Jeremiah. said:

You were doing so well, imo, until the last paragraph.
Where does it say that everyone is not going to heaven?

Now, don’t get me wrong, I believe that everyone is not going to heaven, sadly.
But I just don’t know off the top of my head where that is specifically stated in the Bible.

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"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

Other than that small question, I have to say I found your post quite well done.

Also, I’m not sure, but are there many people who believe in Calvinism any more?

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Seem to be. . .

The Liturgist said:

I also love Rev. Billy Graham, memory eternal as the greatest evangelizer of the past century, who among other heroic virtues, received the blessing of the Moscow Patriarch to preach in the Soviet Union, which was extremely helpful to the Russian Orthodox Church, because the Communists prevented them from catechizing the youth and interfered with their preaching to the point where most Russian priests and bishops weren’t able to do any, other than the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom, which is read annually, so Rev. Billy Graham made a huge difference in terms of keeping the Christian faith alive in the Orthodox Church and every other church in the USSR, because as an American celebrity, the Soviets didn’t dare lay a finger on him; the KGB could only look on at the harbinger of their demise, the Gospel of our Lord, being preached openly, in malign wrath. I do not count Graham with the three great televangelists however, as he was more of a general evangelist and open-air preacher in the historic revivalist tradition.

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That’s really cool, I didn’t know that.

Mark Quayle said:

?? What about him —why mention Wesley, what is your point?

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If we take George Whitfield too literally, it would imply that John Wesley was without grace.

Conversely, if we interpret John Wesley too literally in his argument over Calvinism with Whitefield, when John Wesley said to George Whitefield, “your God is my devil”, we might mistakenly assume Wesley was accusing his friend of diabolatry (devil worship).

The two used a certain amount of hyperbole in their exchanges.

The Liturgist said:

But what about Whitfield’s best friend and fellow Methodist, indeed the founder of Methodism, John Wesley, with whom he famously made a pact to “agree to disagree” on Calvinism?

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Good Day, The Liturgist

What about it....

Wesley Vs. Whitefield | Christian History Magazine

The Liturgist said:

If we take George Whitfield too literally, it would imply that John Wesley was without grace.

Conversely, if we interpret John Wesley too literally in his argument over Calvinism with Whitefield, when John Wesley said to George Whitefield, “your God is my devil”, we might mistakenly assume Wesley was accusing his friend of diabolatry (devil worship).

The two used a certain amount of hyperbole in their exchanges.

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Thanks ...I couldn't figure why you said that.

There was obviously a bit of grace at work between them. After all, Calvinists debate Arminians every day here, and usually, one isn't calling the other a devil or declaring their suitability for the Lake of Fire.

.

Mark Quayle said:

Thanks ...I couldn't figure why you said that.

There was obviously a bit of grace at work between them. After all, Calvinists debate Arminians every day here, and usually, one isn't calling the other a devil or declaring their suitability for the Lake of Fire.

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Indeed, that’s more how Sunni-Shia debates tend to play out, until the shouting voices are replaced with the clash of scimitars.

The Liturgist said:

Indeed, that’s more how Sunni-Shia debates tend to play out, until the shouting voices are replaced with the clash of scimitars.

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Well, I like to think the difference from Sunni/Shia for the Calvinist/Arminian is Christ. We don't limit Christ (not even the Calvinist) from saving absolutely whomever he is pleased to save. I may not represent the Calvinists well in this, but I believe it possible, even likely, that there are more Arminian-leaning Elect than pure Calvinists. My reasoning has to do with the very Calvinistic fact that GOD is the one who selects and saves, and not by any virtue of the one being saved.

More outrageous to some Calvinists may be the fact that Calvinism is not one of the Manifestations of Spiritual Growth of the Believer. It is not of itself the fruit of the Spirit, though I believe the truths within it are impressed in some way on believers. (As has been said several times, Arminian-leaning believers are far more common than Calvinists, yet when they pray, they pray Calvinistically, acknowledging God's power and sovereignty and right of choice over the will of the human —acknowledging God's causation.) The Bible does not teach Calvinism as such. Calvinism teaches the Bible. Reformed thinking is constantly reforming to fit the scriptures.

I don't know of anyone who is compelled by the Grace of God, who doesn't also WANT to know more about their Savior and to understand him better.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

Click to expand...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 1 Tim. 2: 1-6


If God desires all men to be saved, as I believe 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 declares, and not everyone is saved, those two axioms, seem contradictory. So how does one interpret 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 without concluding that God does not desire all to be saved.

The only way Calvinism interpret 2 Peter and 1 Timothy is to say Peter and Paul are only talking to those already saved (elect), and walkway, but even though Paul and Peter are addressing just Christians, does not mean they are not presenting a truth about God’s Love for all people who ever lived. Paul is definitely addressing no Christians in the context talking about praying for “all people” and including “kings and all in authority” and “one God” would include non-Christians also.

By saying God is not wanting and is not patient with the non-elect to have knowledge, be saved, repent, and not perish, means God is not “Loving” toward the some lost, yet “Loving” toward other lost sinners. We are to Love everyone and I really try to Love all and desiring none to be lost, perish, not have knowledge, and not repent.




Specificly:

There are just somethings God cannot do, since they are impossible to do, like:

Create a clone of Jesus (Jesus is not a “made” individual, but is deity which has always existed), you just cannot “make” something that has always existed. Jesus is thus perfect, where made individuals can only be made as good as any being could be made (very good by God’s standard).

We are made “very good”, so what is the really important thing we lack that keeps us from being “perfect” like Christ is perfect? This goes back to our earthly objective (please read my last post and think about the “objective”), what we are here on earth to try to obtain and it is nothing we can work for and earn, but can only come to us as a pure undeserving gift, we have to humbly accept it as pure undeserved charity.

The greatest gift God could give us is to be like He is and that is Love. God is doing and allowing everything to help us humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, His Love, so, we can Love like He Loves.

The “problem” is Godly type Love cannot be planted into a human (made instinctive to humans) since that would not be Godly type Love but a robotic type Love (a knee jerk reaction). And, Godly type Love cannot be forced on a person making them accept it, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. It would not be loving on God’s part nor would the Love we received be Godly type Love.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50. Sin is made unbelievably huge so the forgiveness is unbelievably huge resulting in an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The real issue is with the fact humans have a hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (no one likes to take charity and will do almost anything to avoid taking charity). Accepting charity is like the opposite of working to obtain something, but that is the only one way to first obtain “Love”. Those teaching God does the selection independent any human thought, are also saying you do not have to humble accept God’s pure undeserved charity, since you got God’s charity prior to humbly accepting it.

Yes, God is wanting and is offering to everyone eternal life, which comes with accepting forgiveness and Love, but few are willing and wanting to accept this charity, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love (unselfish and unconditional type Love). God does not want unhappy people in heaven (those desiring only a carnal type Love, wanting to be “Loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be).

Much more can be said this is brief

I'm not a Calvinist, but it's obvious that the OP doesn't understand the first thing about Calvinism. This makes their "criticism" rather moot.

Though, ironically, the OP does make accidentally make an argument in favor of the Lutheran doctrine of universal atonement (not universalism, as some might mistakenly think): Christ died for all, and God wills that all be saved. God's will that all be saved, which is found in Christ's death for all, and in the preaching of the Gospel to all, means that God's word goes forth and accomplishes His purpose: To save all who hear and believe (Romans 1:16-17). Who believe, not according to the power of human ability (John 1:12-13), but who believe according to God's grace and power, through faith. Faith that comes from outside of ourselves (extra nos), as the free and pure gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). Which God predestined from before the beginning (Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 8:28-30).

Our election comes not by the inscrutable will of God acting as one saying, "I choose you, but I do not choose you"; but rather is found clear and plain through God's own objective, visible work: Word and Sacrament. We are the elect and predestined of God, and we know this, because we are baptized, and whoever has been baptized is baptized into Christ, united to Christ in His life, death, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12-13), and we have received forgiveness of sins and the precious gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38, 1 Corinthians 12:13).

So election is not hidden, but revealed: Revealed in the Gospel. All who hear and believe, all who are baptized, are the elect of God, predestined in Christ. Thus we look not inward to ourselves to find our hope and salvation, rather we look outside of ourselves to the Son of God who loves us and gave His life for us (Galatians 2:20), because all who are baptized belong to Christ (Galatians 3:27), and all who belong to Christ belong to God (Galatians 4:1-7). The call has gone out, into the streets, to the prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers, and sinners to come into God's household, to sit at His Table (Matthew 22:8-10). Though if we despise the wedding garment given to us, we have no place in the Banquet (Matthew 22:11-14). The Feast is not for the worthy (see again verse 8), but to those in the roads and byways. The powerful despised the invitation, so the invitation goes out to the unworthy, and the unworthy are made worthy by the gift of the white robe of righteousness (Galatians 3:27, Revelation 22:14), not our righteousness, but Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

We are saved by what Christ has done, once and for all (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 10:10); this is the grace of God which is for us, and God makes it ours through faith (Romans 5:1-11), which is not of ourselves, but is the gift of God, not by our own ability lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

We are therefore confident, not in ourselves, but in Christ (Galatians 6:14), who alone has reconciled us and all other sinners to God, by His great love for us. Therefore there is good news to sinners, Christ died to save sinners, and I am the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).

Glory to God in the highest, and His peace and goodwill toward all men. That the Son of God, lifted up on the cross, should draw all men to Himself (John 12:32). And all whom the Father has given Him He shall not despise or lose (John 6:37) for His promises are everlasting (Matthew 24:35); and He shall raise us up on the Last Day (John 6:40). Let us therefore set our eyes upon Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith, as we run the race set before us (Hebrews 12:1-3). Believe the good news, hear the word of God's peace to us sinners.

Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ is coming again.
This is our hope, this is our hallelujah.

-CryptoLutheran