If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

Saint JOHN · Jan 30, 2023

Evolution is a lame duck ! (most REAL scientist know this) one instance look up "symbiosis" where BOTH need to exist ( evolve at same time !!?? etc)

Now the real issue..

Gen1v26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion...

27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,.....

(PS the mating desire is just one of Gods BLESSINGS ! unfortunately man quickly adulterated it as fornication and adultery will not enter the kingdom of God ..see...Gal 5v19+ )

one the eight day..as the originals went and did their own thing..

7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

then after time made woman...

they messed up ! and God CURSED them (not blessed);cain slew able;cursed;

16 ¶ And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: ...

she was of the original creation...

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

We have not gotten any sweeter with time ! thats why he tried with a tribe (Israel, eg after all they had seen ,Moses came down from the mount (only 40 days !) and they were already party hard ,make an idol and lets go back to Egypt !! imagine how far off they were when Jesus came on the scene and from him to now imagine how far we are off !

see acts 2v38 mark 16v16+ etc

David's Harp · Jan 30, 2023

Saint Steven said:
A fair number of Christians have opted for a more scientific view of origins.
Evolution, as apposed to Creationism. (basically)

Both sides have good arguments to support their position.
I find myself stuck in the middle somewhere. I see plenty of evidence for intelligent design in creation.
But the other side points to difficulties in the biblical narrative for origins.

Another aspect is the genealogies given. Especially the lineage of Christ.
But again, some see problems in the biblical narrative.

The biggest difficulty for me personally it what this does, or might do, to The Fall and The Atonement.
If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

Hello brother Steve. I would say that there are a lot of things that we are not be able to able to answer by reason alone. That's where faith comes in. God Bless.

PloverWing · Jan 30, 2023

Saint Steven said:
What about the genealogies of Jesus?

Matthew's genealogy goes back to Abraham, not Adam, so it's just Luke's genealogy that's the issue. Luke seems to have based the early part of his genealogy on Genesis 10-11. So that pushes the question back to Genesis. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what to make of the genealogies in Genesis 10-11. They're in the early part of Genesis, the part that's most likely to be meant as fictional mythology instead of history -- Noah's flood, the Tower of Babel, etc. Genealogies seem to me an odd feature to include in fictional writing -- though I suppose there are genealogies of kings in The Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire, so some writers do like to do that kind of thing. The list of names does seem to have something to do with the origins of the nations that surrounded Israel, but I don't have much more than that. Possibly I need to research how genealogies were used in other ancient writings, and get back to you.

The summary is: I don't really know what to make of the genealogies, in either the Old Testament or the New. They can't be literal, but I don't know what the authors meant to do when they wrote them.

Saint Steven · Jan 31, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
Probably more theological intent than historical.

Which leaves us with theological content based on inaccurate historical data?
I agree that there are are problems with the genealogies, so the inaccuracies are present.

If Jesus isn't in the line of David, what does that do to the story?
If Adam wasn't an actual person, same question. ???

Saint Steven · Jan 31, 2023

YeshuaFollower said:
hello Saint Steven,

Yes the living GOD did create man, in his image. do you realize what that means? what is the purpose of this? Hints can be found in the book of JOHN chap 17, it is a pryer from jesus to OUR father, it takes times to absorb this and it is quite extraordinary.

personally, i am absolutely certain GOD created everything, all that is written by the will of GOD through time and many authors is true.

blessings,

Jff

Thanks. I tend to agree with you.

How do you handle the problems in the genealogies of Jesus?
It was explained to me once, so I can't really explain it now.

And what about the scientific conflicts?
The only thing I can create out of dust are dust bunnies. - LOL
But then, I'm not God.

And actually, dust bunnies seem to have evolved. They appear out of nowhere. (or neglect)

Saint Steven · Jan 31, 2023

Saint JOHN said:
Evolution is a lame duck ! (most REAL scientist know this) one instance look up "symbiosis" where BOTH need to exist ( evolve at same time !!?? etc)

Thanks for your reply.
Do you see no issues with the biblical account of creation?
Can a human be formed out of dust?

Saint Steven · Jan 31, 2023

PloverWing said:
Possibly I need to research how genealogies were used in other ancient writings, and get back to you.

I would appreciate that. You are making some good points for the topic, thanks.

PloverWing said:
The summary is: I don't really know what to make of the genealogies, in either the Old Testament or the New. They can't be literal, but I don't know what the authors meant to do when they wrote them.

That's an interesting perspective.
Any comments on the theological impact of that?
If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

ozso · Jan 31, 2023

Saint Steven said:
What about the genealogies of Jesus?

Genealogies don't usually include every single father to son occurrence to the very beginning. Some are short and just include major names like Adam to Noah to Abraham to Joseph to David to Jesus.

I think it's certainly possible that the longest genealogy given in scripture starting (or ending) with Adam did not include every single person in the chain, but rather recognizable names of key figures.

So that if every single name was included and that was used to calculate the number of years that elapsed between Adam and Jesus, it would be a larger number of years than 6000.

Also since God operates outside of linear time, I don't see any problem with a six day creation, even in scientific terms.

It seems quite clear that not only was Adam the first man, but also that he had no mother and father. And that he was most likely created as a fully developed adult. That makes Adam completely unique to every singe human that ever existed. He was literally created by God.

Jesus as well is totally unique as being born of a virgin.

I wondered for a moment why Jesus wasn't formed the same way as Adam. But since God said the ground was cursed because of Adam's sin, I suppose that wouldn't have worked.

Andrewn · Jan 31, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
I believe Adam was the first to be made in God's image. The capability to have direct communion with God through His Holy Spirit. All other creatures, including other types of Hominins ,were not created with this ability.

I believe this, also.

Saint Steven said:
What about the genealogies of Jesus?

There is no escape from the fact that the NT gives the impression that Adam was a real person. Luke's genealogy goes back all the way to "Adam the son of God." He must have been different from other hominins as described above.

ozso · Jan 31, 2023

No matter how many other people might have existed before Cain and Able were born, it's clear Adam was unique and set apart. Even quarantined so to speak in the Garden of Eden.

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 31, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Which leaves us with theological content based on inaccurate historical data?
I agree that there are are problems with the genealogies, so the inaccuracies are present.

If Jesus isn't in the line of David, what does that do to the story?
If Adam wasn't an actual person, same question. ???

Here is the way I look at it for those who might care.
We have all seen the little icon for Christian forums site. A little white church with a door and a few windows.
When we click on it the next thing we know is that we are at a site where we find community, conversation, information, even adds.

Is that little white church an accurate representation of the reality it stands for? No. But it works. We don't know all the program that goes into it but we do know that all we have to do is click it and IT WORKS!

It is an analogy of the way God sometimes communicates with us, especially with the Bible. It uses a great deal of figurative language and freely uses other literary techniques to make theological points.

Andrewn · Jan 31, 2023

Saint Steven said:
What about the creation week as six days? (sun up/sundown)

Dan Perez · Feb 3, 2023

PloverWing said:
I'd say that looking around us, at the ways human society is messed up, and looking inside myself, at the ways I'm messed up, there is an awful lot about human beings that needs fixing, and we need God to step in and fix us. Thus, sin, and salvation from sin. I see Genesis 3 as a story that talks about how even though humans are wonderful, we're also broken, and the storyteller uses the characters of a man and a woman in a garden with a tree and a talking snake to describe the brokenness of humankind. The sin part of the story is still very true, even though I think the story itself is intended as fiction instead of history.

In Eph 1:4 reads that He CHOSE us for himself in Him BEFORE /APO the over throw of the world , shows the Christ knew what he was doing before he made the UNIVERSE .

#1 In Gen 3"7 , they found out that they were naked and like all sinners covered them self and sewed fig leaves to cover there SINS as all people doe today .

#2 We also now from verse 9 that Adam and Eve talked with Christ and WALKED by Sight .

#3 We also SEE FROM Gen 3:21 that Christ killed an animal and and ALSO / ASA , stem is in the QAL , and in the Heb INPERFECT TENSE , and DID / ASA , stem is QAL , to make known and is in the IMPERFECT TENSE

#4 And CLOTHED THEM / LABAS and stem is HIPHIL , also in the IMPERFECT TENSE .

#5 This is what ATONEMENT / COVERING means and where ATONEMENT began >

#6 So where did ATONEMENT then stop ?

dan p

PloverWing · Feb 3, 2023

Dan Perez said:
#6 So where did ATONEMENT then stop ?

Sorry, what do you mean by #6? Are you asking whether people still sin? What do you mean by atonement stopping?

Strong in Him · Feb 4, 2023

Saint Steven said:
If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

In the NIV, there is a footnote for Genesis 2:20, and other verses where Adam is used, which says, "or, the man". I read somewhere, though I don't know where, that the name Adam means "first man" in Hebrew.
If that is so, then the first man was literally Adam.

YeshuaFollower · Feb 4, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Thanks. I tend to agree with you.

How do you handle the problems in the genealogies of Jesus?
It was explained to me once, so I can't really explain it now.

And what about the scientific conflicts?
The only thing I can create out of dust are dust bunnies. - LOL
But then, I'm not God.

And actually, dust bunnies seem to have evolved. They appear out of nowhere. (or neglect)

Dear saintsteven, sorry for the late reply, i got lost exploring the different threads.

For me, both Joseph and Mary were part of David's royal line, I am not worried about the genealogies as prophecy said that David's line would produce the messiah; I do believe about the virgin birth but for the genealogy to be correct scripturally, both had to be of the Davidic line. I am certainly not an expert but this I personally know as true.

Jeremiah 23:5-6;
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The lord is never wrong, I trust in GOD completely. As for the creation of Adam, the first born, God can create as he pleases, from dust or anything he wills. If we analyze dust from the earth , it surely contains everything needed to produce a human body the same as today, we all come from the dust of the earth and we return to dust when we die.

Blessings,

JFF

ARBITER01 · Feb 5, 2023

Saint Steven said:
The biggest difficulty for me personally it what this does, or might do, to The Fall and The Atonement.
If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

It doesn't affect anything.

Mankind that was prior to Adam were nothing more than animalistic, instinctive types, with only a soul in a body. It was only when GOD formed man on earth and breathed into him that he became a living soul, someone of intelligence and more because he became a spiritual being.

I'm a big proponent of the gap theory, and because of that, I don't have to ignore dinosaurs and evolution. I can agree with such things being associated with what mankind was before GOD created Adam.

Andrewn · Feb 6, 2023

If Adam wasn't the first man, how does that affect The Fall and The Atonement?

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