Identifying Orthodoxy

Nickolai said:

Are you TOCOG?

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No, I'm an Orthodox Christian actually

If you mean the Orthodox body I belong, it's the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. At the moment, I live in a monastery of the TOC in Greece which is in communion with my own ROCOR. I'm a permanent guest here! LOL And yes, I'm an Old-Calanderist.

Gnisios said:

The issue of what and who is canonical/un-canonical, from a patristic perspective, is very much complicated and not easy to analyze it fully in a thread. There are many parametres and dimensions we have to consider before 'declaring' someone legit/not legit. We have to go back in history, check the Canon Law, confirm their Apostolic Succession, make sure they uphold the traditional Orthodox testimony/faith, confirm their moral/ethical integrity, examine the reasons of estrangement, apply or not apply economy, etc...etc...etc. Every case is different.

I also need to underline that this issue -fortunately- does not really affect the Orthodox life in Europe as believers here know from their own experience who is a true Orthodox and who isn't. The situation is different in the US where all kind of self-proclaimed 'bishops' and so called 'Orthodox' Churches exist. In every case though, I still beg my brothers/sisters not to draw any conclusions only because a Church or a bishop is listed or not listed in an 'official' website.

As for your link, they are not Eastern Orthodox since their Apostolic Succession comes from the Old Catholic tradition. I'm not even sure they claim to be EO because they use the terms 'orthodox' and 'catholic' to underline the right faith and universal character of the church. For sure they are not EO.

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Thank you for a serious answer to my inquiry.

Blessings,
Clem

Gnisios said:

No, I'm an Orthodox Christian actually

If you mean the Orthodox body I belong, it's the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. At the moment, I live in a monastery of the TOC in Greece which is in communion with my own ROCOR. I'm a permanent guest here! LOL And yes, I'm an Old-Calanderist.

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Fair enough Father.

Forgive my bluntness, but how did a Hieromonk from a heavily russian tradition end up in a greek monastary? Just curious.

Clem,

Here is a link to the Orthodox Churches of the world--anyone not listed here is somehow separated from the Orthodox Church worldwide and is not in full communion for some reason, even if it is a poor political one. For the Orthodox, schism is a big deal, so when/if there is one, especially for poor reasons, much prayer is needed. There's one thing that can be said for the Orthodox, and that, as history shows forth, one does not break communion with the Church lightly, even if one disagrees with it. The Church did not split over Arianism; the Church met and talked, and those who were Arian accepted the ruling of the Church in Council under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, even if they may have disagreed. Where one does leave the Church because of non-theological reasons (ie, the group has Orthodox beliefs but refuses to remain in communion with the Orthodox Church because of some reason or another), it's a real separation--and not one to be taken lightly.

http://aggreen.net/autocephaly/autoceph.html

If you stick with the jurisdictions listed in that link, you will never go wrong.

Gnisios said:

With all due respect, 'un-canonical' and 'not recognized' isn't same. I agree there are 'paper' or vagante pseudo-Orthodox Churches out there but let's not put everyone in the same box.

Some of you already know that I'm an Old-Calanderist in communion with ROCOR, and even though we are not 'officialy recognized' (yet) no one ever seriously doubted the validity of our Sacraments. A good article on what is canonical can be found here. Personally, I would like to stay out of this kind of debates but I will beg everyone to respect their fellow Orthodox brothers/sisters who for various reasons belong to the Old-Calendar Tradition. Thanks for your understanding.

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An encouraging observation of mine, being fairly new; I have seen new calendar Greek moanstics in communion with old calendar ROCOR, and I have seen new calendar OCA with old calendar Serbians breaking ground together on a new Church. (at least on filmin the latter case ).

Nickolai said:

Fair enough Father.

Forgive my bluntness, but how did a Hieromonk from a heavily russian tradition end up in a greek monastary? Just curious.

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That's a fine question and nothing to hide.

Let's start from the beginning: I took my monastic vows and was ordained as priest within the state Church of Greece two years after I graduated the Athens medical school. Some years later, 5 actually, I went to Athos for a 'sabbatical' with the blessings of my state CoG bishop.

During my stay there, I came in touch with many monks who shared the same concerns with me on some practises of the state Church. It was also during my days in the Holy Mountain when I was first introduced to ROCOR lay members. When they were ready to go back to their country, the US, they promised to talk to their bishop about me. Indeed, after a couple of months I was contacted by their spiritual father and was invited to visit him in NYC.

In the meanwhile, I was preety much enjoying the spiritual atmosphere of Athos. It was a real blessing and an unforgetable experience so I asked from my bishop to grand me a 2 more months permission to stay there. He was kind enough to bless my request. I was also very much eager to visit the ROCOR family in the US. Many Russian monks in Athos (although not in communion with ROCOR) told me of their good and godly reputation.

When I returned to my monastery in Epirus, (that's the place I served) I started corresponding with the brothers in the US. They taught me of the Russian Orthodox tradition, their struggle during/against communism, their view on modern ecclesiology and crisis within Orthodoxy, and the need to return to the basics of our Tradition.*

Although I didn't disagree at all, I felt I had to share this information with my bishop...and so I did. To my surprise, he was very understanding and asked me to seek God's will in this matter. In addition, the brothers from the US invited me to stay with them in NY and see/judge for myself. Once more I asked the blessing of my bishop and although he hesitated at first, he finally allowed me to go. Indeed, I stayed in one of their monasteries but to be honest, I couldn't understand or speak Russian. The culture also was so different. However, day by day it was geting easier and all my converstations with the bishops and monks were in English. Finally, I accepted their invitation to join ROCOR (as traditional Orthodox of course and not as Greek) so I immidiately informed by telephone and letter my bishop in Greece. He was sad but he said he has no right to stop me if God is leading me to such direction. He did all the paperwork necessary to remove my name from the state CoG clergy list, and sent me a very touching and uplifting letter together with a small cross and Orthodox prayer beads (komposkini). Once more I wish to thank him publicly!

As you said, its really difficult for a Greek to change his culture and ROCOR knew this. My new bishop told me of their affiliation with a TOCoG monastery in Athens and asked me if I want to move there as member of ROCOR of course. The monastery is well known for providing hospitality and accepting fellow Orthodox Traditionalists.That was an answer to my prayers....I don't hide I was getting homesick and couldn't say how long I had to be away from my country. By the grace of God everything was arranged and now I'm back in my country and very much happy of the direction I took.

* That wasn't news to me because I always sympathized the Traditional Wing within the state Church that always had good relationship with the Old-Calanderists. Leader of this movement is the (now retired) bishop of Florina, HG +Augustine.

Theophorus said:

An encouraging observation of mine, being fairly new; I have seen new calendar Greek moanstics in communion with old calendar ROCOR, and I have seen new calendar OCA with old calendar Serbians breaking ground together on a new Church. (at least on filmin the latter case ).

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Happens all the time brother, fortunately. All Orthodox Christians are united by the same faith and baptism no matter calendar or synod. (I don't mean vagante pseud-'Orthodox' Churches here)

In addition, we all have to make our personal choices but we can't force people to do something against their will or produce an army of fanatic followers as many extremists from both sides do. For this very reason I never judge people by their particular Orthodox tradition but I try to find bridges of communication and mutual understanding. Everything else is in vain and not at all Orthodox. Even debating on this issue is vanity.

choirfiend said:

Clem,

Here is a link to the Orthodox Churches of the world--anyone not listed here is somehow separated from the Orthodox Church worldwide and is not in full communion for some reason, even if it is a poor political one. For the Orthodox, schism is a big deal, so when/if there is one, especially for poor reasons, much prayer is needed. There's one thing that can be said for the Orthodox, and that, as history shows forth, one does not break communion with the Church lightly, even if one disagrees with it. The Church did not split over Arianism; the Church met and talked, and those who were Arian accepted the ruling of the Church in Council under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, even if they may have disagreed. Where one does leave the Church because of non-theological reasons (ie, the group has Orthodox beliefs but refuses to remain in communion with the Orthodox Church because of some reason or another), it's a real separation--and not one to be taken lightly.

http://aggreen.net/autocephaly/autoceph.html

If you stick with the jurisdictions listed in that link, you will never go wrong.

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Ouch choirfriend! You gave them hints on which synod the monastery I now live belong....hehehe I tried to keep it a 'secret' since I haven't asked for their blessing to use any names in public! LOL

Oh, did I? I hadn't read your PM yet when I wrote that...I'm speaking of any and all groups that have broken communion with Orthodoxy over things political or practical--not theological. I dont think that's a hint to anything--there are probably half a dozen groups that fit that bill.

choirfiend said:

Oh, did I? I hadn't read your PM yet when I wrote that...I'm speaking of any and all groups that have broken communion with Orthodoxy over things political or practical--not theological. I dont think that's a hint to anything--there are probably half a dozen groups that fit that bill.

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I know my dear sister....just kidding

David65 said:

A Roman Catholic friend told me today about a local congregation which calls themselves Catholic, but is out of communion with the RCC.

I'd really like to get to know an Orthodox church, and have found one that looks interesting. How do I know if they are legitimately Orthodox without insulting the priest?

Here are a couple snippets from their web site:





This seems OK?

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check out www.antiochian.org (IIRC that is their website). If they are on there, they are legit.

also check out the parish locator at www.orthodoxyusa.org if they are on there they are likewise legit.

Joe Zollars

umm that should have been www.orthodoxyinamerica.com

ClementofRome said:

As one who is a regular "lurker" can someone shed light on this "legit"/"not legit" issue?

For instance....what about these folks?

http://www.orthodoxcatholicchurch.org/index.html

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I am personally aquainted with a number of clerics from that ecclesial body. Lovely bunch of people.

Lovely though they be, the whole lot is a bunch of heretics. They do indeed claim to be Orthodox, yet pick and choose which Orthodox doctrines to follow.

Joe Zollars

Mother Linda Vining

Mother Lynn Walker

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They are not Orthodox.

choirfiend said:

Clem,

http://aggreen.net/autocephaly/autoceph.html

If you stick with the jurisdictions listed in that link, you will never go wrong.

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Thank you choirfriend. I did not see the following in the list...can you give me some insight:

http://www.acrod.org/index.html

ClementofRome said:

Thank you choirfriend. I did not see the following in the list...can you give me some insight:

http://www.acrod.org/index.html

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They are fully Canonical. (See http://scoba.us/)

There is a Carpatho-Russian Church down the street from my OCA Parish and we will invite one another to different services, dinners, etc.

As I understand it, they were Eastern Rite Catholics who returned to the Orthodox faith in 1938. (Corrected date.)

Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

HandmaidenOfGod said:

As I understand it, they were Eastern Rite Catholics who returned to the Orthodox faith in the mid 1800's.

Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

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They are former Carpatho-Rusyn Uniates who returned to the church, but in the 1930's. Lots of churches in the Northeast in the OCA come from a simliar background. Fr. Hopko's family was Byzantine Catholic.

Ah, yes,...Some of the confusion may arise from the fact that ACROD is a Dioscese under the Ecumenical Patriarch/Church of Constaninople.
Like, there are Bulgarian and Romanian diocese that are under the OCA, not the Church of Bulgaria or Romania...
Like most of the arab or antiochian churches in America are under the Church of Antioch, but a few fall in the Church of Jerusalem's governing...

A Diocese is just a segment of a larger Church that will yield varying amounts of self-government. A Diocese may not be named the same thing as the Church/jurisdiction it is under. Hence American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox DIOCESE, not Church....The same thing goes for the Greek Orthodox ArchDIOCESE of N. America and the Antiochian ArchDIOCESE of America...it indicates that they are not independent, but fall under the governing of a larger group, and the ACROD website does say:

[FONT=arial,verdana,sans-serif] The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese was established in 1938 by His-All Holiness, the late Benjamin I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, under the Patriarchal Seal in the official Patriarchal Document listed under Protocol No. 1379 and dated September 19, 1938, and was canonized in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ. The Diocese was incorporated in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in 1950.
[/FONT]

choirfiend said:

Ah, yes,...Some of the confusion may arise from the fact that ACROD is a Dioscese under the Ecumenical Patriarch/Church of Constaninople.
Like, there are Bulgarian and Romanian diocese that are under the OCA, not the Church of Bulgaria or Romania...
Like most of the arab or antiochian churches in America are under the Church of Antioch, but a few fall in the Church of Jerusalem's governing...

A Diocese is just a segment of a larger Church that will yield varying amounts of self-government. A Diocese may not be named the same thing as the Church/jurisdiction it is under. Hence American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox DIOCESE, not Church....The same thing goes for the Greek Orthodox ArchDIOCESE of N. America and the Antiochian ArchDIOCESE of America...it indicates that they are not independent, but fall under the governing of a larger group, and the ACROD website does say:

[FONT=arial,verdana,sans-serif] The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese was established in 1938 by His-All Holiness, the late Benjamin I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, under the Patriarchal Seal in the official Patriarchal Document listed under Protocol No. 1379 and dated September 19, 1938, and was canonized in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ. The Diocese was incorporated in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in 1950.
[/FONT]

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Thank you.

...and I thought Protestant denominationalism was confusing!!!

JosephtheKansan said:

I am personally aquainted with a number of clerics from that ecclesial body. Lovely bunch of people.

Lovely though they be, the whole lot is a bunch of heretics. They do indeed claim to be Orthodox, yet pick and choose which Orthodox doctrines to follow.

Joe Zollars

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I too have met several clerics from this group. I have in fact heard Mother Lynn Walker deliver the "charge" to a newly ordained monk and she is one heck of a powerful speaker!

I thought it odd that the two "modern" saints listed in their website were gay men.

I do not want to be a judge as I am not Orthodox, but the DL that I attended with the OCCA bunch was beautiful.

This is all very interesting. Thank you for sharing with me.