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The Bible clearly supports God as creator, .
I'm not sure what part of Romans 1 you claim supports ID. I don't see it.
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If I say "this tree appears to have been made" -- is Paul saying that I am claiming that it is made out of steel, nuts and bolts or is he saying that it shows the intelligence of a "maker" that can make living systems with complex features in chemistry/behavior/adaptability/use?
ID argues that some things appear to have been "made" and have characteristics that indicate it.
First, let me be clear that I believe God created everything. I'm not an evolutionist.
But saying something has been made is a very vague claim that could mean a thousand different things
Ok thanks for that. But my question is about the "observations" in nature mentioned in Romans 1 regarding the "things that have been made" -- observation made by pagans not Bible readers in that case. I am pointing out that this claim that even those with no access at all to scripture "are without excuse" since the specifics regarding the 'things that have been made' are seen in nature and are so obvious even the pagans get the point.
How so?
To my knowledge nothing but nature "has been made" by God so that it shows the invisible attributes of the 'maker' -- where that maker is always God himself even in the case of a pagan with no access at all to scripture doing the "observing"
Plato is an excellent example of that. Of course no one but God knows his eternal fate, but the things he deduced from observing the world and their proximity to Christianity blows my mind. So, sure, I believe Romans 1:18 - just as I believe all scripture - but the goal is to lead them to Christ, not to ID.
I just mentioned aliens above. Many theistic evolutionists twist into calling themselves creationists. You and I may think that contortion strains credibility to the breaking point, but they think what they think. There are also those who consider the structure of physical law a "mind" of sorts, and in that sense creation fits their model. Then, what about all the religions that believe other gods created the earth? They'd be more than happy to agree with you about ID ... but again, they don't have Christ.
My main objection with ID is that by framing the idea as a scientific hypothesis, it inadvertently takes on a divine claim, thereby infringing on Exodus 20:3.
ID sticks to level 1 and 2 -- where "observations in nature alone" make the conclusion obvious. Not a "conclusion for Christ" but a conclusion that "the backhoe has a maker" and that the maker is not a 3 year old playing in mud... but rather an engineer of some kind.
Maybe you should read The Design Inference.
My main objection with ID is that by framing the idea as a scientific hypothesis, it inadvertently takes on a divine claim, thereby infringing on Exodus 20:3.
"The only objection" possible when going from the very minimum ID level of Romans 1 -- over to the level of ID in your link is in "adding science" to the scope of it where we calculate probabilities and breaking down macro observations in Romans 1 into micro events with each having their own probability calculated. The "objection" would then be to adding the rigor of the science that we find in your link.
I just mentioned aliens above. Many theistic evolutionists twist into calling themselves creationists. You and I may think that contortion strains credibility to the breaking point, but they think what they think.
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You can't tell me what my objection is. I gave you my objection.
You object that it does not rise to the level of a gospel presentation.
Resha, what if the picture is of those DNA strands? The only way you can see them without a microscope is a picture.
Bob, anybody who knows what ID is would keep science in and take faith out. ID is manufactured science and not Biblical.
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