I would not have know sin but for the law....

from scratch · Aug 1, 2014

rick357 said:
If you can not see that teaching what God revealed over 4000 years is no longer of any use because he changed things then it is you who is unscriptural. Stop saying those things dont apply when you know you cant live as an idol worshiper adulturer liar and still call yourself christian. Further even with those things being true you are right you can not live by law and get anything by it from God. But that catagory would include prayer time study of scripture giving to the church yet I imagine you do not cast these things off because you not under the law...I hear you I do those things because I want to not by law. Right thats my point sin is bondage the law shows us sin Jesus makes me free to serve God as he has said is right. Not because I am in bondage to the law but because I am free from sin.

Ya cain't obligate God. Salvation isn't obtained nor maintained by merit.

from scratch · Aug 1, 2014

robinvanpersie said:
[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

Is the Law of God part of ALL truth?
[Psalm 119:142]
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."

It isn't a magic formula.
When you are born again, born from above, born of the Spirit---
His Spirit will lead you in ALL truth.

Unfortunately for those who want NOTHING to do with the Law of God...it is part of God's Truth

Is this a lie -

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

from scratch · Aug 1, 2014

rick357 said:
Read further the law does not bring us to God but when God comes to us his law is with him... Im very sorry I could not share this with you.

God's My law isn't the law issued at Sinai per the prophet Jeremiah unless he's lying. Of course that'd make him a false prophet.

rick357 · Aug 1, 2014

from scratch said:
God's My law isn't the law issued at Sinai per the prophet Jeremiah unless he's lying. Of course that'd make him a false prophet.

So your saying there are two Gods?

from scratch · Aug 1, 2014

rick357 said:
So your saying there are two Gods?

How do you arrive at such a conclusion?

rick357 · Aug 1, 2014

from scratch said:
How do you arrive at such a conclusion?

My mistake you are saying there are two laws please explain

Cribstyl · Aug 1, 2014

robinvanpersie said:
[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

Is the Law of God part of ALL truth?
[Psalm 119:142]
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."

It isn't a magic formula.
When you are born again, born from above, born of the Spirit---
His Spirit will lead you in ALL truth.

Unfortunately for those who want NOTHING to do with the Law of God...it is part of God's Truth

It's easy to take scriptures from different contexts and make irresponsible commentary. Yeah, magic formula

rick357 · Aug 1, 2014

Cribstyl said:
It's easy to take scriptures from different contexts and make irresponsible commentary. Yeah, magic formula

Please explain these verses in context so we can understand how the law is not included in all truth

simplegospel1144 · Aug 1, 2014

The Law is included in truth. It is not included in the New Covenant.

Cribstyl · Aug 1, 2014

rick357 said:
Please explain these verses in context so we can understand how the law is not included in all truth

[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

John made it clear in this same book that the law was given by Moses and therefore grace and truth is the gospel and cannot be the law.

Jhn 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Let you tell it, the law is that truth.

Cribstyl · Aug 1, 2014

rick357 said:
Please explain these verses in context so we can understand how the law is not included in all truth

[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

John made it clear in this same book that the law was given by Moses, and therefore; 'grace and truth' comming from Jesus Christ is the commissioned gospel and cannot reasonbly be the law.
Jhn 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Let you tell it, the law is that truth.
Let the Holy Spirit tell it.......... Paul in particular was used of the Spirit to preach of the grace and truth.
Act 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(It's the scriptures that seperates the law from grace.)

Eph 3:2

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(A special measure of grace is recieved by those who believe in the gospel.)

Gal 5:7
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
(The hinderance came from those who taught the law rather than the gospel being the truth)

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In case you missed it; The truth is the word of truth, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

BobRyan · Aug 2, 2014

Setyoufree said:
Under grace the law can't touch us. However, it still can be used as a tool to show us our shortcomings.....If not, James chapter 2 makes no sense.

This is what Paul says about the Law that "defines sin" Romans 7 - 1John 3:4 -- when speaking to those "under grace".

Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law".

Romans 6
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Which is how we demonstrate love for God according to 1John 5:1-4

rick357 · Aug 2, 2014

Cribstyl said:
[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

John made it clear in this same book that the law was given by Moses and therefore grace and truth is the gospel and cannot be the law.

Jhn 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Let you tell it, the law is that truth.
Let the Holy Spirit tell it.......... Paul was used of the Spirit to preach of the grace and truth.
Act 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Eph 3:2

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Gal 5:7

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In case you missed it; The truth is the word of truth, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For a good responce look under your post. As for me if you can hear this. We do not live by trying to keep the law...by grace christ tbrough Holy Spirit keeps the law through us...the law is righteous and Holy it is not a bondage it only shows you that you are in bondage to sin...Jesus came to free you from your bondage.by grace you can live a life that is pleasing to him...as to the whole Moses vs Jesus yes Moses gave us the law grace and truth came by Jesus but who was the source. Who gave the law to moses who gave Jesus to the world...God who changes not......DO NOT TRY TO LIVE BY THE LAW...but know that by grace he will live through you. If you dont hear this then continue in his grace and lwt him lead you into all truth

squint · Aug 2, 2014

Believers use (or abuse) the law differently.

The SDAists for example actually believe they are sinless when they obey/keep. To me that is a somewhat ridiculous notion, that anyone becomes sinless by obedience or keeping the law. To me, that is simply deception of the most common variety.

Others reject it entirely, not realizing that there really ISN'T an issue with anyone not murdering or stealing, and when not doing so that IS a form of keeping that is not a christian issue that I can tell. Still doesn't mean that any not doing so is sinless.

And still others recognize that there is a SPIRIT of the law, which is not related whatsoever to the jots and tittles. The law does deal with intangibles such as LOVE and HOPE and proper/sound judgments.

I would be in the latter camp, knowing a couple things about the law.

The law definitely drives home the fact that I'm a sinner. That conclusion is unavoidable to be IN TRUTH. You can't LIE or deceive yourself and be IN TRUTH.

Yes, we are sinners regardless.

At that point it is the SPIRIT that allows us to REIGN over being factual sinners in LOVE. And in this THE SPIRIT in us, with us, is superior to indwelling sin, which we still factually have.

Don't have to throw away the law. Don't have to deny Gods Words. It fits. It works.

Pretty simple.

Believing sinners Love and are honest.

And in that they also REIGN in this present life, OVER that which we factually have, sin.

Setyoufree · Aug 2, 2014

BobRyan said:
Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law".

Really? Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

It does not agree with the context.

It does not agree historically.

It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually.

Paul is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith in this passage. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically
.

What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically.

You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article.

"The faith" refers to Christ. Therefore it should read as follows: "Do we, then, nullify the law by the faith (Jesus)?" No! Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says.

God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

rick357 · Aug 2, 2014

Setyoufree said:
Really? Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God's power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law."

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I'll give you three reasons:

It does not agree with the context.

It does not agree historically.

It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually.

Paul is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith in this passage. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won't allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically.

What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: "It is impossible for you and me to establish the law."

What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it's impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible.

Let's go to number three: grammatically.

You see, the word "faith" is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word "faith" has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, "Do we then make void the law through our faith?" He is not discussing the believer's faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he's not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word "faith" is preceded by the definite article.

"The faith" refers to Christ. Therefore it should read as follows: "Do we, then, nullify the law by the faith (Jesus)?" No! Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says.

God doesn't bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son's holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the "good news" of the Gospel.

Thats weird I just agreed with you

Setyoufree · Aug 2, 2014

squint said:
The SDAists for example actually believe they are sinless when they obey/keep.

No....They believe that they must reach perfection (sinlessness) before Christ comes back. Hence traditional SDA (and not all fit this mold) are subtle legalists and have something in common with RCC.

Setyoufree · Aug 2, 2014

squint said:
The law definitely drives home the fact that I'm a sinner.

Finally you said something that makes sense and is inline with the Bible.

Cribstyl · Aug 3, 2014

rick357 said:
For a good responce look under your post.

Are you referring to BobRyans post? Why not say so?

As for me if you can hear this. We do not live by trying to keep the law...by grace christ tbrough Holy Spirit keeps the law through us...the law is righteous and Holy it is not a bondage it only shows you that you are in bondage to sin...Jesus came to free you from your bondage.by grace you can live a life that is pleasing to him...as to the whole Moses vs Jesus yes Moses gave us the law grace and truth came by Jesus but who was the source. Who gave the law to moses who gave Jesus to the world...God who changes not......DO NOT TRY TO LIVE BY THE LAW...but know that by grace he will live through you. If you dont hear this then continue in his grace and lwt him lead you into all truth

You lack biblical references and I'm sure you don't expect us to swallow these strange teachings.

rick357 · Aug 3, 2014

Cribstyl said:
Are you referring to BobRyans post? Why not say so?

You lack biblical references and I'm sure you don't expect us to swallow these strange teachings.

I use for a scripture referance the book of Deuteronomy and John and Romans...as to not saying bobryans post it was just the way I said it there was no ill intention...but more seriously if saying God was Moses and Jesus source is strange or that we are to live by Christ in and through us is strange teaching then what is to become of us.

I would not have know sin but for the law....

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