I want to believe

starelda · Feb 14, 2007

An update...I tried to go back to Christianity, I thought I really could believe it again and that's why I hadn't returned to this thread.

However, the title of this thread no longer fits how I feel now. I *don't* want to believe because I *can't* believe. It goes against everything I know. To believe I have to ignore all the questions I've asked and the answers I reached over the past year.

But thank you for your time anyway.

InnocentOdion · Feb 14, 2007

Sorry to hear that.
Although I've never felt Christianity go against anything I've asked or know. Not evolution, not chi, not chakras, carbon dating. Even being "pro-choice" doesn't mean you can't be Christian, but I'm not going to try to convert you or even preach. Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way. I don't know, but I hope you're comfortable with your choice.
God bless,
IO

DArceri · Feb 14, 2007

starelda said:
An update...I tried to go back to Christianity, I thought I really could believe it again and that's why I hadn't returned to this thread.

However, the title of this thread no longer fits how I feel now. I *don't* want to believe because I *can't* believe. It goes against everything I know. To believe I have to ignore all the questions I've asked and the answers I reached over the past year.

But thank you for your time anyway.

What are some of your most unanswered questions? Maybe someone here can help you.

Tiberius · Feb 15, 2007

starelda said:
Hello again.

First things first, a little background for those that haven't bumped into me before. I'm an ex-Christian...I've basically believed in God all my life and became Christian at the age of 11. I drifted into paganism during my teens but returned to Christianity a few years ago. However last year was one long tug-o-war between belief and lack of belief. I had various doubts, hit various problems and lost faith. I kept finding myself feeling pulled back, often because of a major problem occuring and me then needing the comfort belief in God brought me. Anyway, I vented about this tug-o-war before.

I thought that I'd now settled on unbelief but now I find myself *again* feeling pulled towards Christianity. This time there's no major problems...nor was there last time when I felt this way either, which was just before Christmas. I find myself wanting to pray about various things...such as upcoming exams, the health of my family, etc but each time I hold back from doing so. I find myself missing the connection to God that I used to feel. I essentially find that I want to believe...I just don't know if I can but at the same time I don't know if I can not believe either. I ran across this in another thread in the questions by non-Christians forum. Someone said that they believed in God because they can't not believe...they'd tried and it didn't work. Maybe I'm finding the same...that no matter how hard believing is, I can't not believe. Hmm...

Yeah, anyway...I guess this is another vent from me.

Ask yourself what you really want. Do you want the comforting embrace of belief, or do you want to know the truth, whatever that may be?

If you want to know the truth, then you'll be in for a hard journey. You may have to look at and deal with some things you don't want to, and you may come to the conclusion that there is no God. Then again, your search for the truth may lead you to believe that there is a God after all. But at the end of this journey, wherever it may lead you, you'll feel much more satisfied, because the conclusion you reached will be one that you reached yourself, instead of a conclusion that others have provided.

If you want to find the truth, the best advice I can give you is to always seek confirmation of things from independant sources, and don't acept claims that don't have any evidence.

Seekermeister · Feb 15, 2007

Believing or not believing in God is not a simply a decision, either you do or you don't. The decision is in how you deal with this belief... i.e. "Do I deserve a relationship with God"? "Does God really want a relationship with me"? I could continue in this line of thought, but it has more to do with your belief in yourself, than in God.

You, like all of the rest of us, has some faults. If God is willing to forgive you, the only question is whether you are willing to forgive yourself?

EDIT: I posted before I read your update. If you choose to deny God, nobody is going to stop you. Perhaps the problem is that your knowledge of the things that you think interfere with your belief is not as great as you believe, because there is nothing in science or the world that has any validity in contradicting God.

starelda · Feb 15, 2007

darceri said:
What are some of your most unanswered questions? Maybe someone here can help you.

I think I'm beyond help on this subject now

Seekermeister said:
Believing or not believing in God is not a simply a decision, either you do or you don't.

I'm confused, you start off sounding like you feel belief isn't a choice. But then you say I'm choosing to deny god...

EDIT: I posted before I read your update. If you choose to deny God, nobody is going to stop you.

I personally, don't think belief is a choice. I've *tried* going back to Christianity...I've tried to choose that option. I miss the comfort it gave me in times of trouble, I miss the joy it gave me, I miss finding guidance in the bible, I miss feeling totally loved by something that would never leave me or die. I do miss it in some ways and I've tried going back but I think that's my problem. I need to move on, I'm never going to have those thoughts and feelings again, I need to let them stay in the past. Because I've tried to accept god again and become Christian again but each and every time I try I end up feeling miserable. I end up trying to treat this world and my life as if there is a god in it when I can't actually see any evidence for one.

So I don't feel belief is a choice. If it was, I'd probably still be Christian right now. I think you either believe or you don't. You either see evidence or you don't. I don't feel I'm choosing to deny god, I don't feel I'm making a choice.

Perhaps the problem is that your knowledge of the things that you think interfere with your belief is not as great as you believe, because there is nothing in science or the world that has any validity in contradicting God.

I disagree. I did believe that god and science could co-exist...that science told us the "how" and god told us the "why". I guess just before I started questioning whether god existed I realised that god had become a "god of the gaps" for me. Whenever there was something I didn't quite understand, god could fill that gap in my knowledge. But the more I read the less gaps he had to fill.

Seekermeister · Feb 15, 2007

starelda,

I can understand your confusion, because this is something that is easy to get lost in. The best that I can explain, is that a belief of this kind, is formed at a level outside of conscious decision. We can promote or suppress this belief by the decisions (notice, I used the word "suppress", not kill) ,that we make consciously, which leaves the impression that it is entirely of our own making, but it is a false impression. We are the captains of our own ships, by virtue of this process, but not of the seas on which we are sailing. We choose the sea and the intended route across it, but whether we are successful or not, depends on the weather. Although we want to avoid the storms, when we encounter them, they can either destroy us, or send us sailing toward our destination. Your destination is not where you think it is.

Sketcher · Feb 15, 2007

starelda said:
I personally, don't think belief is a choice. I've *tried* going back to Christianity...I've tried to choose that option. I miss the comfort it gave me in times of trouble, I miss the joy it gave me, I miss finding guidance in the bible, I miss feeling totally loved by something that would never leave me or die. I do miss it in some ways and I've tried going back but I think that's my problem. I need to move on, I'm never going to have those thoughts and feelings again, I need to let them stay in the past. Because I've tried to accept god again and become Christian again but each and every time I try I end up feeling miserable. I end up trying to treat this world and my life as if there is a god in it when I can't actually see any evidence for one.

Why did you leave then? I may be blunt, so forgive me if I come off as a jerk, but it just seems that you can't find a faith and stick to it. I've been on CF for years, you've been on CF for years, and we haven't talked much but I've seen you go from Christian to Bhuddist to Atheist back to Christian, back to Atheist again, and so forth and it really perplexes me. What is the root of all this here?

glo1 · Feb 16, 2007

starelda said:
Hello again.

First things first, a little background for those that haven't bumped into me before. I'm an ex-Christian...I've basically believed in God all my life and became Christian at the age of 11. I drifted into paganism during my teens but returned to Christianity a few years ago. However last year was one long tug-o-war between belief and lack of belief. I had various doubts, hit various problems and lost faith. I kept finding myself feeling pulled back, often because of a major problem occuring and me then needing the comfort belief in God brought me. Anyway, I vented about this tug-o-war before.

I thought that I'd now settled on unbelief but now I find myself *again* feeling pulled towards Christianity. This time there's no major problems...nor was there last time when I felt this way either, which was just before Christmas. I find myself wanting to pray about various things...such as upcoming exams, the health of my family, etc but each time I hold back from doing so. I find myself missing the connection to God that I used to feel. I essentially find that I want to believe...I just don't know if I can but at the same time I don't know if I can not believe either. I ran across this in another thread in the questions by non-Christians forum. Someone said that they believed in God because they can't not believe...they'd tried and it didn't work. Maybe I'm finding the same...that no matter how hard believing is, I can't not believe. Hmm...

Yeah, anyway...I guess this is another vent from me.

My story is very similar to yours:
Brought up in a Catholic home, fell away from my faith as a teenager, dabbled with other religions, and returned to Christianity quite powerfully four years ago.

In the last year I have had many struggles and doubts about my Christian faith - and I have just recently come out of that and (at this moment in time) feel stronger in my faith than I have for a long time.

I believe it is part of our walk with God to face and deal with times of doubt and fear and questions.
I see and hear from people who are seemingly rock-solid in their faith, and never seem to have moments of doubt.
That doesn't seem to be me!
Perhaps I will always have times of questioning, perhaps one day I will settle into a solid and firm faith ... I don't know ...

All I know is that God knows my heart anyway, so where is the point in trying to hide my doubts and fears? I might as well bring them all to him, and tell him about them.

You say that you believe in God ... so why not just trust him and put yourself under his protection and guidance?
I believe he loves you, and he will keep you!

Blessings

glo
Edit after reading your update: Guess things have changed for you since your first post ... All the best for your travels!

salida · Feb 16, 2007

Starelda--

You say you can't believe? Hmm. Can you believe something as simple as the sun rises in the morning? If you can, then you can intellectually believe the Bible and therefore the christian faith. Its a spiritual decision and second an intellectual one. Below is some evidence of the objective proof of the Bible. Notice: its just "some" as there is overwhelming evidence of it.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

**Can you tell me specifically why you "can't"? Do you like what you see in the world as it keeps going on a downward spiral? What is holding you back? We can't talk you into it - because no one has come back to Christ this way. It must be your free will - this is a requirement for a step forward.

salida · Feb 16, 2007

Starelda--

You don't like what you hear? Believing in Christ isn't a popularity contest in this world because we arn't of this world even though we live in this world. The world has the spirit of mostly antichrist.

Seekermeister · Feb 16, 2007

salida,

He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000
years ago)

I have never heard anyone claim that Job was only 1000 years old, But I have read where many scholars believe that it is the oldest of the scriptures. While I'm not certain about that, I have read an apocraphal book of Job, which placed him as a contemporary of Abraham, which would go back to around 1754 BC or about 3761 years ago. Apparently, he was not a Hebrew, but an Edomite, which became related to Abraham through a marriage to Abraham's daughter.

EDIT: I have to correct myself, it was not Abraham's, but Jacob's daughter that he married. Of course the timeline would also need to be corrected.

starelda · Feb 16, 2007

Seekermeister · Feb 16, 2007

starelda,

From what I have read in your posts, you are not an atheist, but an agnostic, because you do not really know what you believe. An atheist firmly denies the existence of God.

starelda · Feb 16, 2007

Correction, I didn't know.

This thread serves no purpose now, I've asked for it to be closed.

Spudgrandma · Feb 17, 2007

This thread has been closed at the request of the Original Poster.

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