i think teens must realize

Shane Plew · Oct 31, 2012

Gath said:
I would disagree there.

You can have the free will to choose whatever you want-but those choices are going to inexorably lead you to a specific fate. You still have control over the choices, but you don't have control over the results.

You opinion is idiotic, as are those who share it.

Girder of Loins · Oct 31, 2012

*In a perfect Crocodile Hunter accent*
Oh no, the atheists are turning on one another... Let's take a closer look!

Girder of Loins · Oct 31, 2012

Shane Plew said:
You opinion is idiotic, as are those who share it.

You do realize that is an ad hominem fallacy, and all of us "idiots" can claim a "win" in this debate over you? Just saying...

I Eat Pie · Oct 31, 2012

Let's keep things clean guys 8).

Insults won't get us anywhere.

KimberlyAA · Oct 31, 2012

When you're a teen a lot of physical and emotional changes happen. You become more mature and more independent so you end up having to make more decisions about right and wrong. You're bombarded with more negative stuff so temptations and struggles are abundant. You have to be firmly grounded in the Truth to make a wise decision in each area of your life.

Shane Plew · Nov 1, 2012

I didn't personally insult anyone. I insulted an opinion. The second part of my post may have been taken as a personal attack but was not meant as one.

Also, atheists are only supposed to agree on one thing and that is that they don't believe in a god. In the particular line of thought mentioned, there is a logical inconsistency.

GrizzlyMonKeH · Nov 1, 2012

Shane Plew said:
The law can change, and it will change. Following an ancient set of rules is foolish. You need modern rules to deal with modern problems.

I half-agree with you here. I believe laws should be adapted to fit with modern society. However, I think said laws are ultimately still based on some core objective values common to all of humanity. I think if you look at human history, moral beliefs are more alike than they are different, and this is a strong case for an objective moral code that is ever-present (though often skewed) in human thought.

Chris Blanks · Nov 1, 2012

Girder of Loins said:
*In a perfect Crocodile Hunter accent*
Oh no, the atheists are turning on one another... Let's take a closer look!

Thanks for that, I just spit juice all over my monitor. Haha

Girder of Loins · Nov 2, 2012

To Shane,

Let us assume we can know where this universe will lead if we knew all the x's an y's. Wouldn't that mean we could predict the future, and therefore life would be fate?

Shane Plew · Nov 2, 2012

Girder of Loins said:
To Shane,

Let us assume we can know where this universe will lead if we knew all the x's an y's. Wouldn't that mean we could predict the future, and therefore life would be fate?

Not fate, but it would be predictable. As far as I can understand, fate is a definite future but there is a purpose to it. It's kind of like saying everything happens for a reason (reason being that some higher power willed it to). I might agree with the statement it we could determine if there was or was not truly random events occurring in the universe. Though I would use a different definition of reason. Like I have said before, I don't have an answer to this problem, and neither should anyone else.

Gath · Nov 2, 2012

Shane Plew said:
You opinion is idiotic, as are those who share it.

Perhaps I should clarify: I don't believe in fate, but I certainly believe that it would be possible, theoretically speaking, for fate and free will to coexist. Take the webcomic Erfworld as an example. In that story, there is an eventual end-a fate-for some of the characters due to the nature of the world. In other words, certain events are fated to happen. However, the characters still have the ability to choose to fight against their fate or with it, thereby changing the path that leads to these events.

Shane Plew · Nov 3, 2012

Gath said:
Perhaps I should clarify: I don't believe in fate, but I certainly believe that it would be possible, theoretically speaking, for fate and free will to coexist. Take the webcomic Erfworld as an example. In that story, there is an eventual end-a fate-for some of the characters due to the nature of the world. In other words, certain events are fated to happen. However, the characters still have the ability to choose to fight against their fate or with it, thereby changing the path that leads to these events.

Personally I don't think anyone knows whether or not freewill exists or not. I think that everything should be able to be predicted but I also think that there may be an element of unpredictability that exists. In the example that you gave there wouldn't be true freewill. True freewill allows a person to choose whatever fate they want which is not possible with any form of fate. I would not call you an idiot for believing in either fate or freewill (I might call you arrogant) but I would say it is idiotic to believe the two can coexist, which is what you are saying. Now if you say that a person can have a sort of pseudo freewill while also having a fate, that could be logical.

Gath · Nov 3, 2012

Shane Plew said:
Personally I don't think anyone knows whether or not freewill exists or not. I think that everything should be able to be predicted but I also think that there may be an element of unpredictability that exists. In the example that you gave there wouldn't be true freewill. True freewill allows a person to choose whatever fate they want which is not possible with any form of fate. I would not call you an idiot for believing in either fate or freewill (I might call you arrogant) but I would say it is idiotic to believe the two can coexist, which is what you are saying. Now if you say that a person can have a sort of pseudo freewill while also having a fate, that could be logical.

I'd say it's true freewill. You can still choose whatever actions you want. Even with true freewill, you can never choose the end result. Take the story of Oedipus as another example. He is fated to kill his father-his actions will eventually lead to that. However, he still has free will. He can still go wherever he wants and do whatever he wants-but eventually one of his actions will lead to killing his father. If he hadn't killed him on the road, he may have done it accidentally, in any number of ways. He still can choose to do whatever he wants, but the world will conspire against him such that the end result is the same.

Free will isn't the ability to create any result you want-it's the ability to choose whatever action you want. The result of that action is determined by many other forces.

Shane Plew · Nov 3, 2012

Well we are not going to agree on this so the argument is pointless. This apparently is a matter of opinion.

Girder of Loins · Nov 3, 2012

Gath said:
Free will isn't the ability to create any result you want-it's the ability to choose whatever action you want. The result of that action is determined by many other forces.

I support this definition of free-will.

Shane Plew · Nov 3, 2012

Girder of Loins said:
I support this definition of free-will.

How about we just use the dictionary definition...

Girder of Loins · Nov 3, 2012

Shane Plew said:
How about we just use the dictionary definition...

"The ability to act at one's own discretion."

Shane Plew · Nov 3, 2012

Girder of Loins said:
"The ability to act at one's own discretion."

Using this definition, freewill is incompatible with fate.

ChristianT · Nov 3, 2012

Shane Plew said:
Using this definition, freewill is incompatible with fate.

How so? If one can act on their judgement of their surroundings, how does that negate fate?

Girder of Loins · Nov 3, 2012

The problem we're having is understanding where free will resides and where fate resides. Fate is always in the future. It never deals with the present. Freewill deals with the present, and the present only. Fate is a build up of past actions, and freewill is simply how you act in the present. You can have free will decisions that lead to fate.

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