I Suppose that I'm 4 Point

[brightlights]

Firstly, I believe strongly in the doctrine of sola scriptura. That being said, I've seen vast amounts of scripture that back up unconditional election, irrestable grace, and perserverance of the saints. I'm not entirely sure what total depravity means, but I think I've seen scripture to support it. Limited Atonement, though, while logical, I have never seen backed in scripture. I've only seen it backed in logic. Could you guys help me to better understand total depravity and perhaps provide some scripture for limited atonement to make me a 5 pointer?

 

[cygnusx1]

Firstly, I believe strongly in the doctrine of sola scriptura. That being said, I've seen vast amounts of scripture that back up unconditional election, irrestable grace, and perserverance of the saints. I'm not entirely sure what total depravity means, but I think I've seen scripture to support it. Limited Atonement, though, while logical, I have never seen backed in scripture. I've only seen it backed in logic. Could you guys help me to better understand total depravity and perhaps provide some scripture for limited atonement to make me a 5 pointer?

Hi there Brother , glad to see you in this warm place

The total depravity of Man can be misleading , it is meant to teach that mankind has not one inch of his being that has not been tainted and infected by Sin.
It doesn't mean that men cannot do 'GOOD' , but that even his good works are as filthy rags compaired to God's righteous Law.

Jesus said only God can do good , but he also said "if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children ......."

notice the fine distinction , Only God is TRULY GOOD , and even man's Good deeds are from an EVIL (corrupt ) heart.

I will let you ponder Limited atonement , I can help you but I find that if it isn't a firm conviction placed upon you by God Himself you will doubt it .

I think the "battle " has always been over which words in any appropriate passage do we emphasise ...........

the words "all" "World" etc...................

or The Words "Propitiation" "Securing a redemption" "appeased" "reconciled" .........

when you discover that the first lot of words are used in many different ways (often not Literally) then it is merely one more step toward the Impact of the second lot of words ............

God Bless
cygnus

 

[Dmckay]

IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY SCRIPTURAL?
Does the Bible teach that man is powerless in the spiritual realm, and that he neither desires God nor would seek God except God sought and enabled him? Is man's will fallen and enslaved, along with his mind and emotions and desires? Even a quick search will turn up numerous passages which seem to confirm this. One of these is Romans 3:10-12 which is emphatic in declaring several things:
1. No man is righteous in his person or works.
2. No man seeks God
3. No man understands God or spiritual matters.
4. All have gone astray and become unprofitable.
5. No man does any good.
The confusion arises because at the same time we uncover verses which seem to state that man has a responsibility to seek God:
Seek ye the Lord while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near. (Isaiah 55:6)
Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you. (Matthew 6:33)
Except ye repent, you shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
As we weigh these passages against one another, we must conclude the following possibilities:
1. Either the Bible contains a contradiction;
2. Or one set of these verses is wrong and one is right;
3. Or man is able to overcome his inability and do something by his own power that God says he cannot do by his fallen nature;
4. Or man is able to meet the responsibility that God’s commands require of him by God’s power as God enables him.

Points one and two are ruled out by a view of Scripture as trustworthy and inspired. Point three is ruled out as a contradiction—that is, man cannot do something by his own power that is absolutely foreign to his own nature. Our conclusion must be that point four has to be correct.
God does place upon man the responsibility to repent of sin and believe in Christ, but man is powerless to do so in his own strength, and he can only do so as the power of God enables him.
It is at this point that the “whosoever will” passages of the Bible become clear. True, the Bible states “whosoever will” in Revelation 22:17. It also speaks of “whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life” in John 3:16. But in light of Romans 3, we conclude man can’t come to God in his own strength, but his will has to be enabled by God!
Conclusions in this area are further confirmed when we consider Ephesians 2:1-3. That passage indicates the following:
Before salvation (the quickening by God)-
1. Man is dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Man walks according to the course of this world;
3. Man walks according to the dictates of Satan;
4. Man walks in the lust of his flesh, fulfilling the desires of his flesh and of the world.
5. Man is by nature a child of wrath.

This does not leave man any room for spiritual ability. How much spiritual ability could a dead man have in his mind,…in his will,…in his desires? If man has all this spiritual ability in this hour (as some claime), why is there a need of quickening (a new birth) by God?
Is not the quickening (or new birth) for the purpose of raising man from a state of powerless inability—a state from which he can’t extricate himself by his own power?
The clear teaching of Scripture is man, at the fall, became totally incapable and powerless to either desire God, to serve God, to know God or to seek God unless God enabled him. The questions that then arise are:
Does God just quicken some men to salvation—those He has chosen by His will while bypassing others? Or does He remove the effects of the fall at some point from all men, bringing each man to a neutralized position where the man can then either chose or reject Christ and salvation? Does God lift each man up, like a father would lift his child up to the branch of an apple tree, so he could decide then to pick or not pick an apple?

 

[AndOne]

Here is some scriptural support for Limited Atonement:

8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (Romans 8:8-12 NKJV)


2elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:2 NKJV)


18knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:18-21 NKJV)


30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NKJV)

23Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. (Romans 4:23-25)

Hope that helps a little - read the Westminster Confession of faith with scripture proofs for even more scriptural support for Limited Atonement.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Firstly, I believe strongly in the doctrine of sola scriptura. That being said, I've seen vast amounts of scripture that back up unconditional election, irrestable grace, and perserverance of the saints. I'm not entirely sure what total depravity means, but I think I've seen scripture to support it. Limited Atonement, though, while logical, I have never seen backed in scripture. I've only seen it backed in logic. Could you guys help me to better understand total depravity and perhaps provide some scripture for limited atonement to make me a 5 pointer?

Total depravitry is frequently misunderstood to mean that people are as evil as they could possibly, which obviously isn't true. Nobody is as evil as they could possibly be. As RC Sproul says, even Hitler didn't murder his mother. What it does mean is that everything we do is tainted with sin. Even our most pure and noble actions have at least a hint of sin about them, even if that sin is simply performing actions apart from the motive of bringing glory to God. Many atheists work in food banks, but their goal is not to glorify God, but to help their fellow man, which may not be a self-centered goal, but it is still a man-centered goal.

To be honest, I'm puzzled how someone can accept Total Deptravity, Unconditional Election, and Irristable Grace and not accept Limited Atonement. IMHO, they stand or fall together. If the first three are true, but the fourth is not, that only leaves universal atonement, doesn't it?

 

[cygnusx1]

Total depravitry is frequently misunderstood to mean that people are as evil as they could possibly, which obviously isn't true. Nobody is as evil as they could possibly be. As RC Sproul says, even Hitler didn't murder his mother. What it does mean is that everything we do is tainted with sin. Even our most pure and noble actions have at least a hint of sin about them, even if that sin is simply performing actions apart from the motive of bringing glory to God. Many atheists work in food banks, but their goal is not to glorify God, but to help their fellow man, which may not be a self-centered goal, but it is still a man-centered goal.

To be honest, I'm puzzled how someone can accept Total Deptravity, Unconditional Election, and Irristable Grace and not accept Limited Atonement. IMHO, they stand or fall together. If the first three are true, but the fourth is not, that only leaves universal atonement, doesn't it?

there is a middle way , between Limited Atonement and UNIVERSALISM , it's called Amaraldianism / Baxterism ........

It is a modifiication of the atonement , also known as HYPOTHETICAL ATONEMENT .

For a comparison of this view , (which I do not subscribe to) examine God's ForeKnowledge , some argue God Knows all things (past presnt and future) EVEN things that MAY/might have happened .

 

[Jon_]

Firstly, I believe strongly in the doctrine of sola scriptura. That being said, I've seen vast amounts of scripture that back up unconditional election, irrestable grace, and perserverance of the saints. I'm not entirely sure what total depravity means, but I think I've seen scripture to support it. Limited Atonement, though, while logical, I have never seen backed in scripture. I've only seen it backed in logic. Could you guys help me to better understand total depravity and perhaps provide some scripture for limited atonement to make me a 5 pointer?

Well, you're right. Limited atonement is largely a logical argument. The Scripture supports the premises (total depravity, unconditional election, irresistable grace), which logically conclude in limited atonement.

Think of it this way. Is Christ's sacrifice effective for those who are not predestined? No, of course not. Are they then atoned for anything? Again, no. Since salvation is limited, we must conclude that atonement is limited. If Jesus had truly atoned for all the world's sins, then the whole world would be blameless, for his sacrifice would suffice for all.

 

[Antman_05]

Ok go to Ask Calvin and look at the thread Just Scripture, for some of the Scriptual evidane