I really need help, please.. God and Morality..

[2ndTiger]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've been a Christian for many years and I think I've always been very happy with God. I can't believe that after so many years' confident faith, yesterday, just after I responded to a question of my friend, immediately a disturbance dramatically came to me and I am not even sure if God wants to do some examination on me or not as I really can't help myself to figure out this problem, please help, I'm getting sleepless with this and I couldn't even work well today....

The problem is:

According to the Cosmological Argument:

1.) Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
2.) Morality began to exist.
3.) Therefore, Morality has a cause.

OK, now we may give this a quick answer: God created morality.
Therefor at least God understands how to create morality.

Can we suppose that God himself is immoral but just understands how to create morality? For example, He made us to have full of love and He told us to do so but when we go to the heaven he'll tell us: sorry, I already changed my mind, you'll be sending to the hell now... Saying He actually created the world for entertainment and everything we learn from Bible is a lie of him...

I know this sounds VERY VERY absurd and I can't even believe that this comes to force me a non-stop thinking... I'm so restless please help me!!!!

It would be great if you can list it step by step because my English isn't good, for example: 1, 2, 3... Therefor your supposing is 100% Wrong!

2ndTiger

 

[Eudaimonist]

Can we suppose that God himself is immoral but just understands how to create morality?

You certainly can suppose that. You can suppose anything you want. It's actually a very good question to ask.

But I think the standard Christian answer is that God is good by his very nature. It's not something he created, but something that is a part of his very existence. If God had created morality for the benefit of human beings, it was an expression of his goodness.

I hope that helps, but keep asking the tough questions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[2ndTiger]

Believe me, I really have no idea why this 'question' is sticking within my head and I realllllly wish to get rid of it...

I really want to believe that 'it is his very nature' but something is keep popping up in my mind and asking: what if that's not his nature but is what he created?.....

 

[Eudaimonist]

Believe me, I really have no idea why this 'question' is sticking within my head and I realllllly wish to get rid of it...

I really want to believe that 'it is his very nature' but something is keep popping up in my mind and asking: what if that's not his nature but is what he created?.....

That's a very good question, I'll agree. Can you identify why this particular question is popping up for you? Is there a specific idea that is sparking it?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've been a Christian for many years and I think I've always been very happy with God. I can't believe that after so many years' confident faith, yesterday, just after I responded to a question of my friend, immediately a disturbance dramatically came to me and I am not even sure if God wants to do some examination on me or not as I really can't help myself to figure out this problem, please help, I'm getting sleepless with this and I couldn't even work well today....

My first advice to you is to stop stressing. If you are questioning your faith this much, maybe you should go with it and see where it leads. Maybe your god (I don't say that mockingly) wants to test you to see if you will go back to your faith? How old are you? Its not uncommon for people at least once in their life to question their faith. After all, wouldn't questioning ultimately make you stronger? Maybe this is your time to choose your own path instead of that which you've been indoctrinated with. If you think your current path is right for you in the end then great, if not, then thats fine as well. It sounds like you need to do a lot of soul searching think things through for yourself and disregard what others say for the time being.

The problem is:

According to the Cosmological Argument:

1.) Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
2.) Morality began to exist.
3.) Therefore, Morality has a cause.

OK, now we may give this a quick answer: God created morality.
Therefor at least God understands how to create morality.

Interesting questions, but you're not going to get concrete answers about those from anyone. Those are personal beliefs and no one can give you a right or wrong answer.

Can we suppose that God himself is immoral but just understands how to create morality? For example, He made us to have full of love and He told us to do so but when we go to the heaven he'll tell us: sorry, I already changed my mind, you'll be sending to the hell now... Saying He actually created the world for entertainment and everything we learn from Bible is a lie of him...

Thats something you'll need to find out for yourself. Of course talking about it helps, but its still ultimately something you need to think on.

I know this sounds VERY VERY absurd and I can't even believe that this comes to force me a non-stop thinking... I'm so restless please help me!!!!

Again, relax, breathe, research and soul search.

It would be great if you can list it step by step because my English isn't good, for example: 1, 2, 3... Therefor your supposing is 100% Wrong!

2ndTiger

Again, thats something you're going to have to figure out for yourself..no one can give you what you're asking, only their personal opinions. You need to find out for yourself what you believe.

 

[2ndTiger]

Thank you Mark!

Actually it was a question from one of my atheist friend who yesterday initially asked "why God allows evil".

I gave him a very proud answer based on what I know from Bible and some examples and intended to let him believe that God is love, then he asked, "What if everything is FAKE? a LIE? I mean the bible and your God is fooling you with his fake love? He made human to believe in him but actually he is a sadist, etc.."

I shutted him with my high volume "impossible", but immediately I fell into this deep pit.. I couldn't sleep the full night yesterday and now I feel kinda hopeless because after searching online for a whole day there's not even a single answer to such a absurd guess..

 

[2ndTiger]

My first advice to you is to stop stressing. If you are questioning your faith this much, maybe you should go with it and see where it leads. Maybe your god (I don't say that mockingly) wants to test you to see if you will go back to your faith? How old are you? Its not uncommon for people at least once in their life to question their faith. After all, wouldn't questioning ultimately make you stronger? Maybe this is your time to choose your own path instead of that which you've been indoctrinated with. If you think your current path is right for you in the end then great, if not, then thats fine as well. It sounds like you need to do a lot of soul searching think things through for yourself and disregard what others say for the time being....

Thank you! I'm 25 now and I'm protestant. I hope I will work this out soon!

 

[Belk]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've been a Christian for many years and I think I've always been very happy with God. I can't believe that after so many years' confident faith, yesterday, just after I responded to a question of my friend, immediately a disturbance dramatically came to me and I am not even sure if God wants to do some examination on me or not as I really can't help myself to figure out this problem, please help, I'm getting sleepless with this and I couldn't even work well today....

The problem is:

According to the Cosmological Argument:

1.) Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
2.) Morality began to exist.
3.) Therefore, Morality has a cause.

OK, now we may give this a quick answer: God created morality.
Therefor at least God understands how to create morality.

Can we suppose that God himself is immoral but just understands how to create morality? For example, He made us to have full of love and He told us to do so but when we go to the heaven he'll tell us: sorry, I already changed my mind, you'll be sending to the hell now... Saying He actually created the world for entertainment and everything we learn from Bible is a lie of him...

I know this sounds VERY VERY absurd and I can't even believe that this comes to force me a non-stop thinking... I'm so restless please help me!!!!

It would be great if you can list it step by step because my English isn't good, for example: 1, 2, 3... Therefor your supposing is 100% Wrong!

2ndTiger

The problem I see with your argument is point number 2. If Morality is inherant in God, and God has always existed then the whole argument falls apart.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Belk's answer, I think, is easy and, AFAICT, correct ... at least to the extent that it puts the discussion back on the table.

The other question to ask is "what does it mean to exist".

IOW, does morality exist at all? Or, is it merely a name we give to a state of affairs? Does love exist or is it a given state of affairs in one's brain?

Morality, perhaps, is a categorization of behavior patterns as being good -- that which doesn't hurt or offend.

That is the major question: Do categories exist in and of themselves, or are they merely useful constructs of the brain that helps one cope with life? IOW, do thoughts exist if no-one is around to think them?

WRT the OP, then, I would question premise 2 -- I don't think morality, per se, exists.

 

[cantata]

AFAICT
IOW
IOW
WRT
OP

Acronym overload!

I thought the original poster wanted an answer in plain English...

 

[Tomk80]

Thank you! I'm 25 now and I'm protestant. I hope I will work this out soon!

Your basically stumbling upon an age-old question that, as far as I know, nobody has answered yet.

The problem is whether God does good because it is good, or because it is his whim to do so. In the first place, you don't need God to explain morality, because morality is then objective. The latter means that God ordered certain rules because he likes them, in which case morality is subjective. It's just what God liked when he instituted moral rules.

 

[stumpjumper]

Acronym overload!

I thought the original poster wanted an answer in plain English...

AFAICT = As Far As I Can Tell
IOW = In Other Words
WRT = With Regards To
OP = Original Post

For the OP

 

[stumpjumper]

Hi everyone,
Can we suppose that God himself is immoral but just understands how to create morality? For example, He made us to have full of love and He told us to do so but when we go to the heaven he'll tell us: sorry, I already changed my mind, you'll be sending to the hell now... Saying He actually created the world for entertainment and everything we learn from Bible is a lie of him...

I know this sounds VERY VERY absurd and I can't even believe that this comes to force me a non-stop thinking... I'm so restless please help me!!!!

It would be great if you can list it step by step because my English isn't good, for example: 1, 2, 3... Therefor your supposing is 100% Wrong!

2ndTiger

I agree with most of the above answers.

I don't believe that morality exists, per se. I believe moral obligations exist, in a wat, but that they are contextual and really just ways of expressing how we feel we ought to act in certain circumstances.

In that sense, then, does God have situational moral obligations in which he must act a certain way in various situations? That seems a bit anthropomorphic to me.

Some theologians would say that God is amoral in that sense. Not moral or immoral but beyond morality.

 

[Beanieboy]

In my experience man creates God in his image. If they are mean and spiteful, and want revenge, they have a SmackDown God. If they are compassionate, their God is kind and forgiving. If they are materialistic, their God is a coworker that understands that rules can be bent, because whoever dies with the most toys wins.

 

[tapero]

edit

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste 2Tiger,

have you considered that the Cosmological argument is flawed? if not, that would easily relieve this particular problem that you are having, i would think.

metta,

~v

 

[2ndTiger]

Thank you everyone!!!!

Wow and thank you Tapero for your detailed reply!

OK, today I had a talk with one of my Christian partners, and this is finally what I got from him:

Sometimes being skeptical is simply unreasonable! If you become unreasonably doubting, you are not far away to the mental hospital..

Like Winnie Pooh said: Don't talk, just kiss..

 

[cantata]

Like Winnie Pooh said: Don't talk, just kiss..

Wasn't that Right Said Fred? o_0

 

[2ndTiger]

Wasn't that Right Said Fred? o_0

Oh yea? I thought it was from a song of Winnie the Pooh.. OK I'm not serious anyway ATM

 

[Texas Lynn]

I would not charactize morality as something which was "created". Concepts of its application however are continually evolving. We had no concept of a "morality" as applied to the internet prior to when Senator Gore and his Pentagon friends created it.

As to the "morality of God" that is more complex. As a Mainline liberal Christian I have a childlike faith not unlike that expressed by the character Helen Burns in Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre who said as she was dying, "I am sure there is a future state! I believe God is good; God is my friend; I love him; I believe he loves me!"

However, God as characterized by some extreme fundamentalists is not a being of light. Some on more extremist "Christian" message boards express glee that those of differing political views are, as they see it and are eager to tell it, going to hell. Were that so, it would confirm that god is an evil being without question.

Consider for example the tale of the children (42 of them) mauled to death by two "she-bears," apparently sent to do such by "the Lord" for the crime of making fun of the Prophet Elisha's bald head in 2 Kings Chapter 2. John Killinger discussed this in his book Ten Wrong Things I Learned from a Conservative Church how the passage was discussed in a conservative Baptist church he attended as a child and the beloved Sunday School said "the Lord is not like that". Anyone who believes the Lord is like that and would still worship such an evil being is clearly engaging in evil by doing so.