I need some help

[ps139]

Hello all,

I am involved on another message board - actually it is the one that JeffreyLloyd got his posts deleted from a few weeks ago, and I'm in one of those "Catholics are not Christians" type threads. Needless to say, I've been bombarded from every angle on all sorts of doctrinal and historical issues, and I am holding my own, except today someone posted a list of papal statements that I've never heard, I do not know their status, and I need help explaining them to a Protestant. I'll post her post below:

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Here are some Historical RCC statements that Blew Me Away!

The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows:

"The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."

"Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power." Corpus Juris chap. 1 column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII

"All the names which are attributed to Christ in Scripture, inplying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope." Bellamin, "On the Authority of Councils," book 2, Chapter 17.

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" can be found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, Declaramus.

In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of Heaven and earth, and purgatory." Prompta Bibliotheca," Feraris, Vol. VI, p. 26, art. "Papa."

Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is "the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205


These are from the actual pages of Catholic doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2
4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
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I appreciate all help.

 

[DXRocker73]

How are you sure these are real?

 

[raptor13]

i dont think any of these documents are still in effect or considered doctrine.

 

[Wolseley]

Two things I would check:

A) Where is the poster cut-and-pasting this information from? If it's from a source like Loraine Boettner or Dave Hunt, it can easily be dismissed as fabrication.

B) If the quotes are accurate, what is the context? Taking a sentence or two out of an entire document can cause the sentence to look as if it's saying something that the author never intended.

Finally, I wouldn't get too worked up about things you see on anti-Catholic websites. I've been dealing with anti-Catholics for neigh of to twenty years now, and they always come up with this nonsense that never holds up under close scrutiny. Besides, who do you think is going to have information about that Catholic Church that's accurate---the Catholic Church, or a bunch of anti-Catholics on an anti-Catholic website?

 

[raptor13]

good point... sounds like it was cut and paste from Roman Catholicism, which, as we all know, has little to do with Catholicism.

I don't think this person personally went through the 1881 Leipzig 2nd edition of "Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum".

 

[kimber1]

okay i'm not meaning to highjack this thread or sound disrespectful in the least but can someone (maybe kenny since i know this is your pet peeve ) explain the difference between Roman Catholicism and Catholicism? via pm is fine so as not to detract from this thread!

 

[Benedicta00]

okay i'm not meaning to highjack this thread or sound disrespectful in the least but can someone (maybe kenny since i know this is your pet peeve ) explain the difference between Roman Catholicism and Catholicism? via pm is fine so as not to detract from this thread!

Roman is a name that was given to us to identify that are papist and not true Catholics. It’s meant to claim that we are an invention of the pope and he Roman empire and not the true Church of Christ. That is why many ignorant people think we aren't even Christian. Just ask your ex pastor why we are called Roman Catholics, I'm sure he'll be happy to let you know. His reason is why we object to it because of what it insinuates. Properly, we are Catholic- Latin Rite.

Roman Catholicism is a anti Catholic book written by an anti Catholic trying to explain the Catholic faith with very little success. I’m sure that book is on your pastors favorite list. This is where they get the garbadge that they do about us.

 

[Cathologetics]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in catholicism (note the little "c"), do whatever the hell you want.

 

[Michelina]

If the quotes are accurate, what is the context? Taking a sentence or two out of an entire document can cause the sentence to look as if it's saying something that the author never intended.

CONTEXT is the key to understanding the extravagant language of Unam Sanctam.

The statements concerning the relations between the spiritual and the secular power are of a purely historical character, so far as they do not refer to the nature of the spiritual power, and are based on the actual conditions of medieval Western Europe.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15126a.htm

The power to excommunicate "princes" was the ultimate weapon of the Papacy. It had to be claimed Loudly and used wisely. Ultimately, a Pope did have to excommunicate a Holy Roman Emperor to prove that the Church would do whatever is necessary to defend Her rights and Her independence. The Holy Roman Emperor had to kneel at Canossa in northern Italy for a few days. (Well, that's the way itiis depicted in a famous painting.)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03298a.htm

This may seem very embarassing today but the Church had to wage a war with the princes of Europe for many centuries. Extravagant language and customs developed in reaction to the extravagant language and customs of these hereditary monarchs. The "Divine Rights" of Kings had to be counterbalanced by the Divine Rights of the Church. In context, Unam Sanctam can be properly understood.

Christopher Dawson's works are the best historical studies to help one understand the context of Church history in Europe.

 

[ps139]

I have no idea where she got these from, I'm sure they are taken out of context if they are at all real. That site is notorious for their high rate of "copy and paste this webpage" posts. It seems like nobody does their own writing.

What do I say about statements equating the pope to God?

What sort of declaration is this? Is it even infallible? Or is it some pope spouting off?

Thanks so far Michelina.

 

[Cary.Melvin]

I have no idea where she got these from, I'm sure they are taken out of context if they are at all real. That site is notorious for their high rate of "copy and paste this webpage" posts. It seems like nobody does their own writing.

What do I say about statements equating the pope to God?

What sort of declaration is this? Is it even infallible? Or is it some pope spouting off?

Thanks so far Michelina.

ps139,

It looks like you beat me to it. I have also been lurking over there and posting every now and then. I am under the user name ShyBoy over there. I have been laying low for a while, but I'm sure with my last post they are going to figure out that I'm a Catholic.

Its good to know that there are defenders of the faith out there like you.

Thanks,

 

[ps139]

ps139,

It looks like you beat me to it. I have also been lurking over there and posting every now and then. I am under the user name ShyBoy over there. I have been laying low for a while, but I'm sure with my last post they are going to figure out that I'm a Catholic.

Its good to know that there are defenders of the faith out there like you.

Thanks,

Ahhh...shyboy!
I thought you might be Catholic. Thanks for the support!! You came out of nowhere in a dark hour!! I'm glad that you are there.

 

[Michelina]

I have no idea where she got these from, I'm sure they are taken out of context if they are at all real. That site is notorious for their high rate of "copy and paste this webpage" posts. It seems like nobody does their own writing.

The quotes are basically accurate. Of course, they are translations from the Latin. "Tradutore puo essere Traditore" as Italians say: A translator can be a traitor. (It works in Italian but not in English.)

A translator can choose the strongest words when a more moderate one would do. But I have seen it in Latin and their translation is basically accurate, even if somewhat unfair, in its tone.

What do I say about statements equating the pope to God?

The Pope is claiming to represent God on earth. You really have to know European history in order to understand the Church's POV. This is a very "Current Events" discussion in Europe RIGHT NOW. The Euro constitution wants to omit any reference to the Church's historic role in the emergence of Europe. Pope JP keeps insisting that this would be dishonest and unfair.

The Church virtually created Europe. It enthroned kings and deposed others. Its monasteries were the heart and soul of Europe of in the Dark Age. Whole areas were colonized by Caths as a religious enterprise. Bishops still ruled some of these places in the 19th century. The crowned heads of Europe, at the time of Bon VIII, were the descendants of dynasties that ruled only because the Church had endorsed them.

It is always a bad business for the Church to get involved in 'secular' matters. But back then, there was no 'seculum'; there was only the Church in France, the Church in Germany, the Church in England.

What sort of declaration is this? Is it even infallible? Or is it some pope spouting off?

Infallible? No. But it is fair representation of the Church's position during these times. The assertions of these documents must be understood in the context of a completely Catholic Europe.

Christopher Dawson. Is he online?

 

[Cary.Melvin]

Here are some Historical RCC statements that Blew Me Away!

The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows:

"The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."

I checked this one out and I am not finding that quote in the Bull Unam Sanctam. Here is the full text if you would like to read it. It is fairly short.

Bull on Papal Primacy - Unam Sanctam
Pope Boniface VIII - November 18, 1302
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2] , unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

I asked this person where they got this quote from. Maybe it will help me track it down.

 

[ps139]

Michelina I hope you do not mind if I plagiarize you

 

[Michelina]

Michelina I hope you do not mind if I plagiarize you

I won't mind at all.

You're a marvel, ps139! God bless your efforts! Yours too, shyboy!

 

[Cary.Melvin]

Ahhh...shyboy!
I thought you might be Catholic. Thanks for the support!! You came out of nowhere in a dark hour!! I'm glad that you are there.

ps139,

I'm still working on them. I'm taking a gentle aproach with them to at least maybe come to an understanding that Catholics are Christians. One step at a time.

You may want to check it out.

Later,

 

[ps139]

Your approach is wonderful....sometimes I need to calm myself down...
Did you see the new source? Alexander Hislop? I posted a bit on him - if anyone's got some good stuff I could sure use it right now.

I have come to realize something in anti-Catholic arguments. There are two types of people. There are the sincere Protestants who disagree with Catholic doctrine (or their impression of Catholic doctrine), but do so with respect. Then there are the wackos who post all of this **** about "Mystery Babylon religion," trying to make the Church look pagan - it is such a joke....I wish I could laugh at it but I genuinely feel bad for the people who take it seriously....

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

God Bless you ps139!!